Bitches Be Smart, a comments redux
Smart Bitch Sarah initiated yet another dialogue on race in Romanceland on the Smart Bitches Trashy Books blog. The focus is on interracial romance. A positive was I stayed out it (even tho’ my name was raised and yes, taken in vain). For years once I comment, the focus shifts to nonblack ire and hostility to supposed accusations of racism vs the issue. There is no worse taboo than black anger.
And honestly, dealing with ignorance and prejudice is one thing—scary but doable—but dealing with prejudice, ignorance and active hate? Something else entirely. Not a theme that would make me feel safe in the book-world in which I choose to immerse myself. — Jen, who most certainly isn’t black! If she/he were black, dealing with prejudice, ignorance and active hate wouldn’t be an option, it would be reality.
Along with this, other races more comfortable to discuss than blacks are soon brought into the topic. But other races aren’t segregated in romance, no? No matter, they are more fun to talk about than Negroes.
Darlene Marshall reminds us of this
It seems to be a black/white issue in the US publishing industry, ‘cause I’ve seen numerous bestselling romances over the years with Asian/Anglo, Native American/Anglo (Thanks, Cassie!) and Hispanic/Anglo match-ups and no one blinks an eye.
Thanks for attempting to get ‘em back on track, Darlene!
Ciar Cullen notes
I took on a related topic on at Romancing the Blog a while back, and not only did it drop a big goose egg, I got hate mail. (Having grown up in an urban area and living on the East Coast, I thought it was all pretty benign material, or that I knew what kinds of responses I would get. Ha!) I asked whether books in which the protagonists were African American were the exclusive territory of AA writers. And why that section of the bookstore was segregated. One type of response was that “it’s hard enough for AA to get published, so hands off” and another was “the segregation in the bookstore helps sell to the right market.” Not what I expected! It was a bloody mess at the end of the day.
Yep, Ciar, I agree it’s a shame. Then Ciar shuts up and I assume sits back to observe the unfolding bloody mess. What she raised isn’t explored, but it true that a lot of black commercial fiction authors and readers approve heartily of the Negro section. For reader’s it’s a lot easier to find books written only by blacks and for authors it’s a guaranteed and protected niche market with less competition.
Props for Bonnie L ,who astutely remarks
I think what you see in books is a reflection of what popular culture is producing. How many sitcoms and dramas that you watch on a regular basis have interracial couples? Heck, how many have AA couples at all (apart from CW’s line up)?
Am I saying that it’s okay? Heck NO! But don’t go thinking that Romancelandia is behind the times or anything.
AGTigress says there is no such thing as race.
The very concept and definition of ‘race’ (as at least a couple of you have already indicated) is so unbelievably sloppy, unscientific and nineteenth-century-class-conscious and imperialistic that it should be laughed out of court.
She’s right, but tell that to some white folks, honey. She also brings up black music. This chick is brilliant. There’s the solution I’ve been harping for years
Reflect that in the 1920s and 1930s, music made by black American musicians went out on records that were sold ONLY in the black ghettos of American cities. They were known, condescendingly, as Race Records.
But over time, white people started to buy some of these records; they would go and seek them out, in the outlets where they were available.
White romance consumers can drive the market. Seek out the books and buy them and they will magically become more available and less segregated, just like black music in the day!
But then actual black folk join the discussion. Here comes Rosyln Holcomb, smart, articulate, and writes real, live IR romances.
Laura Vivanco actually read black romance!
How about Karyn Langhorne’s Unfinished Business, which has political differences being the main source of conflict between the hero and heroine?
You go, gurl!
danae brings up Suzanne Brockmann.
I love Suzanne Brockmann and I kept thinking of her when I read this post because she writes diverse couples:
Sigh.
Roz brings up a point
Also, I doubt there’s a huge fan base of white women wanting to read about AA heroes with white women, but I could be wrong.
I brought up the same point at dearauthor and got reamed by multiple comments that I was so wrong. White wimmin lurve black men they said! I said…cool beans.
You wrote this seriously? I’m going to assume you didn’t mean that to come out the way it did. Anyway, I am an AA author – Dee Carney
Roz ain’t having it this early in the game, and not from a sister!..
most romance authors are white. If they wanted to write books with black heroes, I would have to assume that they would. And as white women seem to be the bellweather for this industry, presumably they would be published. Given the dearth of them, once can only gather that white women aren’t interested in reading black heroes.
Indeed, when the topic of why white women don’t read black romances comes up, one of the key responses is that they can’t ‘relate’ to black books. What is one supposed to gather from that, other than that white women don’t want black heroes? After all, these same white women have no problems with sheikhs, shifters and any number of other species, but Negro sex? *horrors*
A few comments down Roz links to the Interracial Romancegroup ion MSN. http://groups.msn.com/InterracialMulticulturalRomanceReaders/general.msnw …I completely forgot about this group. I might be a member, not sure. I’m usually overwhelmed with the stuff I gotta do and don’t keep up with loops or boards very well, so generally avoid group membership.
More comments about Brockmann’s Sam and Alyssa ensue.
Seressia speaks up and where to buy these oh so rare IRs.
However, if print books are your cuppa, you’ll have to go to the black section to find most of them. Genesis Press and Parker Publishing are two small print presses who regularly publish bw/wm. As others have said, may epubs do too.
Seressia is always so diplomatic. I admire her.
Trumystique cuts through the BS.
It doesnt matter if the love story deals with love AND race. That little inkling that you might have to deal with confronting race privilege then it becomes unsafe. Read about bloodsucking killer vampires and shifters in paranormals? Sure. Read about serial killers and abusive husbands in romantic suspense? Yup.
Read about interracial romances? Not so much. Before you say what about all those Asians, Latinos, Native Americans. Yes they are in romance. But these are essentialized Others. These are Others that are made safe. Safe as in the noble savage of Cassie Edwards, the powerful martial arts practicing Asian a la Liu or Stuart. So why arent there any essentialized versions of black people in romance? Cause for the most part the archetypes of black folk are negative.
Preach it!
PoisonIvy tells it like the pub industry is
Bottom line: Publishers are in business to make money and if you show them they can make money publishing your kind of book (for instance, by being epublished and being a hit, the current paradigm), they will. Regardless of who or what it is about.
Yep, reader dollars drive marketing. And who spends the most dollars? White romance readers!
Roz gets to the point:
Publishers shelve based on the race of the author, not the characters. White women can write multi-cultural as much as they like with no fear of being placed in the Negro ghetto. It’s most unfortunate.
Angela pipes up
The way I see it, non-black authors writing non-white characters is a good thing, but their ability to experience success in ways a black author (or another minority author:
This cuts our hearts.
Serressia always gets down to marketing and where the black books are and how to get them. This woman deserves to be treated like a white gurl, darnit!
Kimani romance releases four titles a month. That doesn’t include Tru, Arabesque, or New Spirit. No idea how many Sepia or Strebor or Dafina or other lines release. If you can’t find MC (read: black) romances, it’s because you don’t notice them. They just aren’t on your radar.
How many of you who “care about the romance, not the race” actually go into the black fiction section and look for romances?
Damn, now I’ve done steamed myself up. It’s obviously time to go to bed.
Paid61–yeah, wish I got paid what a low level white author gets paid, but I’m not bitter.
Robin brings up Suzanne Brockmann up yet again. uh-oh.
You can’t tell me that Brockmann got where she did without the benefits of white privilege in this society. While I can’t say she wouldn’t be successful if she was nonwhite and writing what she does, but she’d have a helluva lot more mountains to climb and hoops to jump through to attain the success she has if she were nonwhite.– Angela, telling the truth. Now we’re edging into dangerous territory–they can’t take much truth. At least not in large gulps.
Bridget Midway is always politic and a marketing dynamo. I’ve been meaning to get one of her books.
Now, as far as the big pubs being scared to publish I/R, to a certain extent, you’re right. I remember distinctly pitching one of my I/Rs to a publisher last year. At the time I was on the cover of Romantic Times BOOK Reviews Magazine where I lamented the fact that publishers and agents seemed scared to push an I/R work. After I pitched my story, the publisher got this strange look on her face and asked me if my story was I/R. I told her yes, because I hadn’t made it obvious in my pitch. Honestly, I didn’t think I needed to since race wasn’t the conflict. I just referred to my characters by their jobs. Then she told me that she would have a hard time selling my book. I told her not to worry. That I know how to sell I/R because it’s all I write and I have a pretty good fan-base. Then she said she didn’t know where to shelve my book. I guess the romance shelf was all full. Then she asked me to do something that I’ve never been asked to do in a pitch session before. She asked me to do research on the I/R genre and come back to her with sales numbers BEFORE I send her my story. After she sees the numbers, she’ll let me know if I can submit. Needless to say, I didn’t do any research, nor am I submitting to her publisher
Interesting story.
Robin, where was Suzanne Brockmann’s book shelved? Was she placed in the Negro ghetto with all those dozens of black authors who’ve been writing IR romance for more than a decade? Or was she placed in ROMANCE, with the others of the same genre.
Of course her book sold better than those of black authors who’ve done the same. I think it goes without saying that if readers have to seek out books in some segregated ‘African-American’ section of the book store it’s so not going to happen.
Brockmann, Reinke and any other white woman who chooses to write an IR romance will have a leg-up on any black woman doing the same because their books will be mainstreamed while ours are still segregated. And then people wonder why black authors are hostile when a white woman decides to write an IR book. — Roz
I tole you they mentioned Brockmann a lot. A black authoress can only take so much.
Oh, and I must point out that Big Spankable Asses, which you snark so deliciously below, all three stories are interracial. So really, we must ask, are you looking for interracial stories? Or, are you looking for interracial stories written by white women? Roz, gettin’ salty. Oh no they can’t take that!
I don’t think Reinke or Brockmann’s books are called interracial, and I know both are readily available in the romance section of any bookstore. However, had they been black, their book would’ve been placed in the African-American section, and doubtlessly no one here would’ve heard of them, either.
Everything else, especially those with a white heroine and a white author are simply called romances and placed in their appropriate category.– Roz
The manure is nearing the fan.
Maybe I’m dense, but I fail to see, how being hostile to your potential audience is going to help your cause of getting more multicultural romances written by black women read by non-black women.
It sounds just this side of self-defeatist and self-disenfranchising to me.–Growlycub
A direct hit for the shit! Black anger is verboten, you bad, bad black person!
Roz is hot now. Oh how well do I know the feeling…
I’m not hostile towards white readers, I’m hostile towards white writers, who, because they’re white won’t be segregated as my books are. Thus, they’ll sell more books and have more opportunities than I do. Then people will use them as an example (much as they have in this thread) as to how readers have no problem reading IR books. After all they’ve read books by white authors. Never mind that white authors are not segregated and have greater access to readers.
The R-word rears its head!
Quite honestly, I consider it racist to assume that you know how that particular person will feel just because of how you perceive other white people have treated other non-white people.–Growlycub again.
Let’s call the angry black person racist! Hell, yeah! She’s been talking about race and she’s angry, hence, she’s racist fer sure! Go get the ropes, folks! Where’s them trees?!
So, in other words, it’s a white author’s fault they’re white? And they’re to be blamed for a black author’s lack of sales, purely because they’re white?–Robinjn
The wagons circle. There’s a tree over there! Pull out that rope!
I’m working in an industry that practices 1950s style segregation and you turn around and call me racist?!? Of course, that’s how these conversations always go. Rather than call the industry out on their perfidy, it’s much easier to say that the writers have some type of problem.
Interesting that, no one does the same when writers of slash or erotica complain about discrimination. Bloggers circled the wagons and were vehement in their support. But, if I say that people are clearly more comfortable reading IRs by a white writer somehow I’m racist? This is not the first time we’ve had this conversation. Over and over again readers have said they feel uncomfortable reading about black characters. That they can’t ‘relate’ or whathaveyou, yet, if I simply repeat what the readers themselves have said (some in this thread), then I’m racist?-Roz
Touche. Where are the regulars in these race discussions? They are strangely silent and they always got plenty of rope.
I’m angry with white authors because they have greater access than I do, yet they refuse to acknowledge it. Let me say it again, they have greater access than I do, and they refuse to acknowledge it. I couldn’t give two good goddamns about their race, but when their race gives them privilege that they refuse to acknowledge goddamn right I’m hostile and rightfully so.
And Robinjn, any number of authors have tried to ‘work with’ white authors on this issue. I have yet to see any take a stand with publishers. Monica Jackson has been talking about this issue for more than five years. Instead of people acknowledging that it’s wrong and trying to do something about, she received exactly the same response that I’m getting. It’s all my fault.
How many white authors have you heard about confronting publishers about this issue? None. Apparently, Smart Bitches is unaware that there are dozens of interracial books being published each year, even when they snark one themselves. Why is there this lack of knowledge? Because the books are segregated. Yet when we point this out, we get browbeat with how racist we are, even when we’re simply repeating what readers have said, some in this very thread.–Roz
Will reason work this time? Never has before from my end, but the regulars are missing and no names have been called so far. Only a couple are circling with the rope…will, will it be different? Let’s see…
Growlycub, a definite regular type, brings me into it and I ain’t even there this time. Maybe he/she is using a different name?
I went and read some of Monica’s posts. I hope she feels better after she posts them. I can guarantee one thing though, they do nothing to address the inequalities she perceives. If anything they will confirm the negative stereotypes people have about her. Ranting never changes anything.
What you doing then? Aw well, they never consider themselves ranting, just righteously correcting angry black person while hefting the rope.
Robinjn, not because they happen to have pale skin…because they’ve been rewarded for having that pale skin AND not stood up for the Black authors who are having to jump through extra hoops.
You can’t help it if you got ahead because the publishers and agents were disqualifying a whole bunch of your competitors before they left the starting gate, but you can use whatever influence you have - as a reader, as a writer, as a buyer, as a librarian or library user - to get it changed. Or at the very least not minimize people’s concerns when they bring it up.–Rosa, writes a reasonable, modulated calm statement.
Roz doesn’t back down
Hostility? Please. Why is it that anger and hostility is perfectly acceptable when white women are expressing, yet somehow it becomes ‘unacceptable and non-productive’ when it comes from a black woman? I’ve seen anger and hostility on these blogs directed at everything from plagiarism to Amazon.com, and that’s perfectly okay. But when black women are angry because we’re being discriminated against suddenly it’s ‘non-productive.’
Could it be that it makes you uncomfortable because you yourself are a beneficiary of that white privilege? Ferret-gate, Savage-gate, Reba-gate, et al are causes you can circle the wagons around because you don’t benefit from them. But the issue of race discrimination makes you uncomfortable. So uncomfortable that many readers don’t want to read the books because *horrors* there might actually be talk about race in them. I might have to think about my own privilege. Never mind that few if any have any ‘racial issues,’ but readers don’t dare risk it. Incest, child abuse, spousal abuse, sex with shifters even when they’re still wolves, hell, even sex with trees, bring it on. Race? OHMIGOD the humanity.
Yet, when we dare mention this fact, we’re called on OUR racism? OHMIGOD the irony. — Roz
Now if I said that the rope would be being thrown over the tree branches with tons of sputtering, self-rigteous comments chiding me. But the regulars are quiet and there seems to be some new non-racist blood out there.
This is not. It is an expression of the privilege of “colorblindness,” the operative word here being “privilege.” Would that it were outmoded, but sadly, some of us still have to live with it constantly. (And this would refer to any dichotomy where one group vastly outnumbers another so as to claim the title “mainstream”—not just the “white, black (oh, yeah, and some other people, subcategories? What subcategories?” dynamic of the United States.)–Mac
New blood indeed. But from Robinjn, comes chiding and the bad angry fearson black person shut-up card.
I think the question I want to ask you Roslyn is, where does your anger and hostility get you? What rewards do you reap from it beyond a perfectly justifiable sense of knowing you’re right? … But all that aside, the honest question is, does getting hostile and berating people for not understanding you get you what you want? Do you feel it will help your cause? Or does it have a danger of further marginalizing you? (OMG, she’s a militant, we don’t want to have to deal with her!)
… Screaming at people about how wrong they are just isn’t nearly as effective in the long run as trying to befriend them and find a few things you agree on, then swaying them to your pov through empathy and understanding.
And honestly, I do think there’s a place where books by women are segregated. It’s called the romance section.
Patronizing bullshit tends to make even me more angry, but Roz keeps it on point.
And again, I ask the question, why isn’t this question asked in regard to the numerous issues that come up in Romancelandia every week? No one asked if anger and hostility benefitted those angered over Ferret-gate. No one is asking now if anger is benefitting those upset at RT. Yet, somehow, I the person being discriminated against am queried as to the validity and benefit of my anger. Have you stopped to ask yourself why you would ask me such a question?
The fact of the matter is, I don’t discuss this issue all that much except with other black authors, because I’ve learned over the years that the result will always be the same. Someone actually did a flow chart of the typical reaction when racism and discrimination is mentioned. First you have denial. “Oh no, that can’t be true. I bought books by Brockmann.” Never mind that Brockmann isn’t segregated and she introduced those characters with the same care one might give to a truck filled fertilizer and gasoline.
Then there’s, “Well, if they weren’t so hostile, I might care about their cause.” Never mind that plenty of folks far more gentle than myself have made the same complaints with similar results. I don’t care how delicately you introduce the topic of privilege many whites will respond with hostility. Yet, somehow they’re hostility is okay, and mine is ‘unproductive.’
You speak of my anger and hostility as if it’s something I purchased at Bloomies last week. I would much rather not feel them because frankly, it doesn’t feel good. But I defy you to find anyone who wouldn’t be angry and hostile that another group receives privileges and benefits that they don’t, and when they complain about it they’re told their complaints are ‘unproductive.’
This whole conversation got sidetracked because someone dare questioned my right to feel hostile towards white writers whose books are mainstreamed while mine are ghettoized. Apparently, I’m supposed to just ignore the blatant hypocrisy of people claiming that they have no problem reading an IR because after all, they ‘loved’ Sam and Alyssa. Yet, somehow they failed to notice that black authors have been writing IR stories for more than a decade with nothing more than crickets as a response. –Roz
Will they get it? Will they? I read on with bated breath.
This new blood, actually intelligent and basically non-racist person Mac responds again, refusing to bring out more rope.
What I’m getting at is, you can’t tell people how to feel. Roslyn points out a situation in the publishing world that makes her feel bad. She didn’t say she was out throwing rotten eggs at people. Again, you can admonish people on their actions, but you cannot tell people what uncontrollable feelings are okay or not okay with you. (At least, not in such a way that it matters, or has any effect, unless your end-goal is to actually exacerbate those feelings.) ESPECIALLY when we are all acknowledging that the angrymaking situation is real, does in fact exist, and is in fact a problem.
But Anne Douglas is tired of the black issue
I’m a misplaced Kiwi. I get sick and tired of this same argument, over and over again, just because people tend to forget that there is a big wide world out there outside of the borders of the USA. The world is a huge melting pot of different cultures, not just Americans with black or white skin colours.
And wants Roslyn to shut the hell up and be positive.
Roselyn - How about instead of working into a lather about ‘how you white authors have got it better’ (that is what I garner from a few of your posts—btw, is there some secret form from publishers that asks what your skin colour is?Unless your meeting face to face, how would they know?) how about using this venue to put a positive spin on things. Give name and titles, give recommendations on books, hell, pimp your own. Show your own ‘genre’ to its best, instead of dragging into the quagmire of the great American race divide. Own your work with pride for what you, as an author have achieved, not what you think you haven’t because you have black skin. Instead of readers walking away from this blog with a list of twenty odd books to add to their TBR pile, they are walking away with a sour taste in their mouths and no impetus to go and buy.
Roz asks
I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why my anger is questionable, yet the anger that’s regularly posted on various blogs is not. Why is my anger ‘unproductive,’ yet people getting pissed of at RT is not? Anyone care to address that?
Nope, they won’t care to, you fearsome bad angry black person.
But wait, Robin jn replies
In fact, the whole contributing to ferrets was a way of turning a negative and unproductive rant into something positive and productive.
Angry folk over ferret-gate made everything all good. But everybody understand that angry black folk are just plain scary.
Did someone call Roz an ass? The lynching ropes are up and over the trees now. Let’s hang her high!
And it also lets anyone around see how much of ass an author can be and choose not to let their fingers do the walking and hit the buy button.–Anne Douglas
Could you explain why my righteous anger is seen as ‘being an ass?’ I haven’t stalked anyone or threatened their children. I’ve merely pointed out that there’s is discrimination going on. A fact that people have been talking about for more than five years now. In what way is that ‘being an ass,’ and somehow justifies someone not buying my book?–Roz
Yep, like me and a whole lot of folks are going to rush out and buy Anne Douglas’s books now. Seressia has had enough and tried to get back to what matters, the selling of the books
“We’ve had these discussions in various incarnations around the blogosphere. Every time a black author gets angry, people respond with sighs, claims of race cards being played, or chastisements that anger isn’t helping. Question: do your responses to the expressed anger help? Please tell me what you are doing to bring the inequality issue to the forefront. Please share your tips for getting booksellers and publishers to change their policies. Let us know how that letter-writing campaign is going. Report back on how that boycott of stores with segregated shelving is progressing. I’d really love to know what everyone else is doing constructively to move the industry forward. Because I gotta tell ya, shaking a finger and going “tsk tsk” to a frustrated author contributes nothing.
Calm Mac contributes two blessed cents.
This is a trend, I’m noticing of late, of non-Americans insisting that blacks in America not having any real problems. I wonder where this comes from. (I suspect it’s because blacks in the U.S. media are rarely portrayed as anything but scary, and based on my travels, this is the only face I see us showing. I’m extremely troubled by it, but that’s a tangent.)
At any rate, Roslyn is talking about the U.S. publishing industry because that is the one she has to deal with. Why on earth is this such a problem? She (we) cannot address the New Zealand or European or East Asian or what have you marketing climate because we have no interaction with it or influence upon it. But how is the fact that these disparate world markets have triumphed over the problems that we face here (or never experienced them, or experienced completely different problems) tsupposed to help Roslyn? I mean, it’s all very encouraging to hear about, but how is “Shut up and suppress your valid feelings” any more productive than “This publishing reality that I have to live with makes me angry”?
Roz tells like it is and isn’t attacked wholesale. New blood indeed.
I’m castigated for being hostile, yet I don’t see anyone else being challenged on their absolute lack of interest. Injustice is going on, dozens of authors are being disenfranchised, yet the only person being called racist in this thread is me. Isn’t that funny?–Roz
I wonder if they will ever get it?
Race discrimination cuts both ways. In one breath you said AA authors are discriminated against and segregated in USA book stores - an issue I can heartily get behind supporting as wrong. But then in the next you rail against other authors because they are white—sorry, but slap me in the face with a wet fish, then still expect me to support your cause? It ain’t going to happen, no matter what the cause/race/creed or colour.–Anne Douglas
Lawd forbid we mention white folk’s unearned privilege (affirmative action bennies for being white). We slapping them in the faces with wet fishes!
Another person defends Roz!
Wait wait wait. Why is Roslyn getting the third degree? She came here to discuss a topic and brought up really pertinent issues; and did it well, with logic, and directness. Rather than berating her for her feelings, we should be using that as a springboard for further discussion. Because she’s right about the color of the author issue. We shouldn’t be mad at her for noticing that. We should be discussing how to change that. For everyone here that jumped all over here for being mad and disappointed and tired; that’s pretty patronizing. Hell, I’m white and I feel patronized. If this were a discussion of feminism, and some guy came over here and patted our heads and said that our perceived inequality was all in our heads and was a social construct that was outdated and it didn’t really exist…would you accept that?! Um..no. We’d be all over his ass and for good reason.
The ropes fray a bit.
Mac brings up more logic. The ropes start to droop from the trees.
She’s not railing against the authors. She’s expressing resentment of unfair privilege and annoyance with those who enjoy the privilege but won’t admit it (both parts of that last bit are necessary to the equation—“have the desired thing” and “won’t admit to it.")
She is not categorically accusing every single white author who ever wrote an IR of being a terrible person—she is expressing her desire to enjoy the same levels of success for doing the same thing, her anger at the system that doesn’t allow this, and her frustration with those who don’t admit the system exists.
Those who don’t find themselves in any of the above categories don’t need to feel “attacked” by anything she says.
And yet another defender!
Guys,
Rosyln has a valid point. *sighs* Negating what she’s saying by using the hostility gets you nothing, doesn’t work. And it shouldn’t.
She has an issue to be angry about, and she’s angry. It’s really sad she can’t bring up the issue without others adding oh, but… as a way to prove it not so.–Shayne
Robinjn takes a last stand.
To me, that’s a pretty blanket accusation against all white writers, period. That’s sure the way I took it and it’s why, I think, she’s gotten some backlash. If she had expressed herself more fully in that post I think a lot fewer people (including me) would have said anything.
But the defenders have made an impact. The rope to hang Roz have slipped from the trees.
the authors are trying to explain how they’ve been marginalized and how other readers have made it clear that they DON’T want to read their books, and white readers and authors just don’t understand.’ So you end up with the talking past thing, where the AA author(s) who speak out feel attacked and the readers feel attacked, even though, in the main, they really all agreed on one really salient point: that good Romance is good Romance and readers want as much variety as possible. If we could focus on that, and on how we have some common ground there, I think we could make some serious progress as a community united in the love of Romance. But I honestly don’t know what it’s going to take to get there, how long it’s going to take to get past the MUTUAL feeling of disrespect.–Robin, a dear author reviewer, I do believe.
But who has the power, the few AA authors who dare to speak out or the mass of white romance readers/authors who try so hard to shut us up because of their fear of black anger? Better, who has the justified anger? Not the white folks sitting firmly on top and pretty.
How did you translate my feeling hostile towards white authors to I hate white authors because they’re white? I never said or even implied such a thing. Indeed, I made it clear that I feel hostile towards them because they receive privilege and fail to acknowledge it. Further, their success is used to bludgeon black authors because then readers can claim that they have no problem with IRs because Brockmann was so successful. Totally ignoring the fact that Brockmann, by dint of being white is not ghettoized.
But also, as a reader, I can say, that yelling at the reader that I should be doing something, more something, what the crap is wrong with my because I’m sitting on my tuffet, eating my curds and whey? Pretty damn alienating.
Actually, Sara, I haven’t yelled at anyone. I’ve been online for 10 years, and it’s my understanding that yelling is signified by allcaps. I haven’t allcapped anyone. Indeed, I didn’t ask about activism until people started telling me how pointless and useless my anger is. I think it’s reasonable to ask people if they think my response is useless, what then is their response to the injustice?
I just don’t think the reverse is true, either (that white readers don’t want to read it, or only want to read a certain version of it).
I can only tell you what white readers have said. Over the five years we’ve had this discussion we’ve been told by white readers that they feel they ‘can’t relate’ to ‘those books.’ Now, call me crazy, but given that Brockmann’s book was a bestseller I can only surmise that IRs become ‘those books’ only when the author is black.
Clearly given the premise of this post, a sizable percentage of the romance reading audience was unaware that there’s a plethora of IR romances written by black women. So yes, the notion of the ‘forbidden other’ reigns supreme. IRs written by a white woman=safe. IRs written by a black woman=those books.–Roz
OMG, a comment below where somebody gets it totally!
on the “where does your anger and hostility get you?” counterpoint - unfortunately, it seems a reference to the unapologetic mexican glosario is in order here. here’s a description of that tactic:
“The Drowning Maestro” - A Wite-Magik Attak that pretends to be utterly concerned with the brown person’s tone. It matters not that the brown person might be speaking passionately of hurts they have suffered their entire life, hurts they suffer as they speak, starving children, raped women or murdered millions. The person hurling the Wite-Magik Attak fixates upon the TONE of the complaint or insight. Because what really bothers them is that a brown person has the nerve to speak with such self-confidence and passion. This, in fact, scares them. If it weren’t such a demeaning move when you have something you feel is important to say, this Attak would be downright comical. Just picture a conductor waving his wand as he plummets to the bottom of a darkening sea.
• ARROGANT mexican
• SHRILL woman
• UPPITY negro
• WRONG SIDE OF THE BED
• CRYBABY
• CONFRONTATIONAL
• CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER
• LEADING FROM YOUR CHIN
• MEANNOTE: This Attak often comes with a carrot. In other words, what is really desired is for the brown person to admit the desired heirarchy, to get “back in place.” To achieve this, the power-holding person will often criticize the tone of the desired subjugate while making it clear that a withheld reward might come their way if they submit to the invisible pecking order being violated.
• “We’d admit about your point if you presented it nicer.”
• “I have this work I was going to throw your way, is there a problem?”
• “People would listen to your complaint if you weren’t so loud.”
• “If you want people to care about this, you should learn to be smoother.”
yeah… to anyone who gets the urge to use this type of “argument” to prove you’re really not being racist and the person you’re addressing is overreacting? don’t. you’re proving the opposite.
How many times have people written this shit to me:
• “We’d admit about your point if you presented it nicer.”
• “I have this work I was going to throw your way, is there a problem?”
• “People would listen to your complaint if you weren’t so loud.”
• “If you want people to care about this, you should learn to be smoother.”
about some reasonable but race-related point I made? And in prior discussions the new blood of non-racist reasoned folk was absent. Then they wonder why I think the romance community is racist on the whole…
From Mac
I’m no industry expert, so I’d love to know—why would an author prefer such a thing? If blacks are only 11 percent of the U.S. population, it seems to me that restricting a book to a dusty back-wall section of the store, based on race, is shooting oneself unnecessarily in the foot (in a way that restricting a book based on genre simply is not, because non-majority people read books aimed at the majority, or aimed at other people’s minorities). I’ve never seen another race cordoned off like this in bookstores. Language groups, mainly, but that makes sense. Not only is it “excluding the majority/whites”—it’s excluding everyone who is not part of that 11 percent. (And it can be a hostile environment. I’ve never seen dirty/distrustful/even puzzled looks being exchanged like this in the SF, or Humor, or History section. Not even in the freaking manga section.)
So what is it that I don’t know that the authors who prefer the AA section of the store have grasped that I’m missing?
Nope. They just see the accessible niche, less competition and the ready publishing op.
Sarah, I know you were speaking with your “reader hat” on, but (and I don’t want to make this sound like I’m picking on you, because in fact I’m trying to suggest that you’re more influential and have more power than you seem to think you do) I think you’re in a unique position as someone who has such a popular romance blog and a book deal to write about the genre. You’re writing The Book (which one hopes will sell well and reach a wide audience) and I suspect that how/what your write about AA romances, inter-racial romances, and race and culture in the romance genre might also help to “effect a change.”
In addition, you have a “reviewer hat.” Robin wrote that “I believe that reviewing AA/IR books on the blogs can make a difference, too.” I agree with Robin on this.
It seems to me that one big problem that exists is that at the moment it’s hard to find reviews of many of these books outside sites/groups specifically dedicated to reviewing/discussing them. (I forgot who wrote this, but kudos to them!)
My solution!
Those people with power in Romanceland–Smart Bitches, Dear Author, AAR, and others should pick several prolific, readable Token Negro Romance Queens and review ALL their books from here on out. It’s a given that the TNRQs should be good/decent authors and address a variety of reader preferences and the reviews balanced (no unrealistic all good reviews and no all bad ones either). Once majority romance readers accept the TNRQs and treat them as NOT DIFFERENT from the rest, we’re home free. Can it happen? Can romance venues treat a select few black authors the same as they treat nonblack ones? It’s a real question, for sure. I’m not sure if they can.
Then Robinjn says folks are calling her a racist, the horror!
Sigh. This stops dialogue completely with a certain segment. And if you reply …if the shoe fits, all hell breaks loose. We are all racists to one degree or the other. I don’t get why so many can’t get that.
Robinjn is kindly corrected (buttered up) by Mac and aplogizes.
A comment on the discussion overall:
When my brain got over being boggled, I thought back to this also-lengthy comment listing, and how rational it all is. Statements are backed up with examples, interpretations, explanations. Conversations contain meaningful information, and contrary positions are read and understood, if not agreed with. I don’t see any statements implying that “this is what’s what, and that’s that, and don’t try to change my mind, mofos!”
Readers of the romance, what superior logic we possess.
I have to say, I am so totally impressed with this discussion too.
And I really want to commend Roslyn. I agree with every word you wrote and I am blown away by your honesty and your courage to keep– saying– it. I got it. I totally got it.
It’s good that I bow out of these discussion because it’s been ten years of crap and I’m so extremely tired of the same ol’ sheisty and the ropes being brought out over and over. I tend to be short and dismissive of folk I perceive as racist, while folks such as Mac and others can butter them up as they require and bring them over to another point of view far more effectively.
Well done, all!
Posted in Racifying Genre Fiction |
May 7th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
I read that discussion and was pretty boggled. It is in area full of insidious circular justifcation. I post a review of AA romance, blog gets no comments. Blogger wants comment, ergo… This whole thing needs to be pushed uphill if it is ever going to go anywhere. I am an M/M writer, yay and all that. But the fact that M/M romance is doing better at getting RT reviews and shelving in the main romance section than AA romance is boggling. I also wonder. M/M is clearly a kind of appropriation fetishisation, isn’t I/R too?
May 8th, 2008 at 3:14 am
“M/M is clearly a kind of appropriation fetishisation, isn’t I/R too”
Doesn’t that depend on how you think of the protagonists? I mean, if you think “a love story” is what is important, then neither are fetishising, but if there’s heavy emphasis on the particular feature of the characters which makes them different from the intended reader/the author, then it might be fetishising. In the I/R romances I’ve read, the characters weren’t fetishising each other, at least not as I’d understand that term, because they weren’t fixated on each other’s skin colour and it wasn’t the basis of their sexual attraction to each other.
I’m not so sure about how I’d define appropriation, but I have the impression that with regards to literature, it would be the author who was responsible for it, not the reader. So if that’s the case then white readers shouldn’t worry about it when they pick up an AA or I/R romance. I suppose if those readers started trying to speak/dress etc like the characters that might be appropriation, but almost all of the AA characters I’ve read about in romances are professional people who dress and speak in what seems to me to be pretty much identical ways to the American (but not black) characters I’ve read about in other romances.
On the other hand, are some romances with white characters set in the Regency appropriating British history (because they’re written by US writers) and fetishising the rakish, hard, dangerous male? And there are some interesting versions of Scotland to be found in some historical romances which could be considered fetishising and appropriating, perhaps.
May 8th, 2008 at 5:13 am
Bwuahaha Monica! I’m actually pleased and surprised at how civil the conversation was.
On the other hand, are some romances with white characters set in the Regency appropriating British history (because they’re written by US writers)? And there are some interesting versions of Scotland to be found in some historical romances which could be considered fetishising and appropriating, perhaps.
You know Laura, I’ve actually considered this to be appropriation. I also think it goes hand in hand with the “historical accuracy” debate. Writers and readers have appropriated 19th C British culture, but twisted it to fit American sensibilities and genre expectations for characters. Judging the horrors recounted by a few British acquaintances who attended various college with significant populations of British aristocrats, if the American Regency writer were to write socially accurate novels, it may not be pretty.
I also have an inkling that the shift to the 19th C British historical may have ties to the sudden unpopularity of the historical romance set in the American South. With the British historical, we can have the fantasy of aristocracy (like the GWTW-world) without the knowledge that Southern aristocracy was built on the backs of slaves and racism. American culture prides itself on its nebulous claim to an egalitarian society, so class is a more comfortable conflict to deal with than race–and even when race is handled, it’s dealt from an etic perspective that I feel turns that (often) mixed race protagonist into a “tragic mulatto.”
The Scottish-set historical has taken the place of the Western and/or “Indian” romance that was so popular in the 1990s. We’ve got the uncharted, “wild,” and “savage” land of “strange” and “exotic” customs, the inhabitants are oppressed and marginalized by a majority (the English) and they have a language which sets them apart as “special” (really, an “Other”)–except technically speaking, the Scottish are “white.” So we’ve got a romance where the hero can kidnap and ravish the heroine without the legacy of what has been done to Native Americans.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:16 am
Angela, I have a feeling (can’t double-check because until recently AAR didn’t archive all posts on their boards) that you and I tried arguing something like that in response to an at the Back Fence column at AAR last year. Robin Uncapher had written that
American culture does not descend from modern day England. It descends from an earlier England. England of the 19th century dominated the world, much in the way that America does today. In this way, I believe that Americans not only identify with 19th century English, we understand them better than many of their descendants who live in England today. Those descendants know a lot about their ancestors, but do they know what its like to be the focus of the national foreign policy of virtually every country in the world? Do they know what its like to feel, in some way, responsible for the world’s welfare?
Apart from the issue of where American culture comes from (i.e. there’s a lot, lot more to it than what’s derived from WASPs), or the seemingly unquestioning acceptance of what sounds like a modern version of the “white man’s burden” (I’m thinking of the bit about the US being “responsible for the world’s welfare”), there was also explicit recognition of cultural appropriation:
American romance readers know it’s romanceland, and we don’t mind all that much. We love our vision of the English. And here is why. America’s Englishman, that is to say, the English hero in American romance novels, is not really English. (Okay okay, I can hear you British readers laughing from here and saying you knew it all along…)
The thing about Scotland is that Scotland’s often been treated as a wild, savage land and had an ambivalent position within the Empire of the Victorian period. It was simultaneously part of the home country, and a site of Otherness. And yes, I can see how to Americans it might seem like a good place to set a book in order to avoid having to cast any inhabitants of the US as wild and savage.
Anyway, the reason I brought up the comparison was to suggest that it’s very difficult to get away from the issues of fetishisation and cultural appropriation.
On the whole, and I’m going to risk making a generalisation here, I suspect that they’re less likely to be a problem in romances written by authors who share a cultural background with their characters. That’s not to say that someone can’t fetishise their own culture or appropriate their own culture (Sir Walter Scott managed to romanticise Scotland, after all, and Cassie Edwards was appropriating things and claiming Native American heritage - though in both cases they were writing historical fiction, which provides the kind of distance which may facilitate appropriation/romanticisation/fetishisation), but that it’s perhaps a bit less likely to be a problem in contemporary AA and I/R romances written by AA authors (which is mostly what was under discussion on that thread at the Smart Bitches).
There was also some discussion about what white authors could do to make romance more multicultural. One possibility that was mentioned (I’ll call it the “Suz Brockmann” option, since her name, as alluded to by Monica, seems to come up frequently in these discussions) is for them to write about black and other non-white characters in a non-fetishising, non-culturally-appropriating way. That might be good, but on its own it really wouldn’t address the bigger problem of why the AA authors and their books are treated differently. It seems to me that if romance as a whole was more mixed (e.g. there was no distinction made between books on the basis of their authors’ skin-colour) then that would automatically make romance as a genre more multicultural, and it would side-step the issue of appropriation. It would also give AA authors access to a wider readership (and potentially much higher sales).
May 8th, 2008 at 11:21 am
More white authors writing black characters solves absolutely nothing, and it’s irritating when it comes up.
As Roz stated, white-written IRs are treated differently than black-authored IRs. That’s the heart of the matter and the problem.
More white authors receiving privilege does nothing do solve segregation and that’s why the idea (such as the one Ciar Cullen stated on her RTB post) is offensive to some black authors.
Romance lovers adore the idea of wild savage going sex-crazy over creamy-white skin.
But the fact that black men rarely appear in these stories point to the dehuminization of blacks in general.
If one considers blacks less-than-human than oneself, reading about black romance is going to have no more appeal than reading about romance between any other animals. It turns off a significant segment of nonblack romance readers as much as bestiality.
This is the core of the problem with romance and is rarely addressed. The reason black romance needs to be treated differently–and is treated differently by the pubs is merely because of racism. It won’t sell nearly as well to voracious nonblack readers and will upset racists if mixed with theirs.
So unless you cure racism against blacks–how can you cure this problem?
May 8th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
the fact that black men rarely appear in these stories point to the dehuminization of blacks in general
Yes, as an article about the recent study by Goff, Eberhardt, Williams and Jackson (published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology) stated: “Crude historical depictions of African Americans as ape-like may have disappeared from mainstream U.S. culture, but research presented in a new paper by psychologists at Stanford, Pennsylvania State University and the University of California-Berkeley reveals that many Americans subconsciously associate blacks with apes.”
Not very encouraging, to put it mildly. But I think one way those subconscious associations can be changed and eliminated is by exposing the people who hold them to texts, films etc which challenge their existing stereotypes and which offer alternative images of black people. AA romances would do that.
There’s a whole spectrum of white readers, from the very racist, to the not-very-racist-at-all (I suspect all of us, whatever our colour, will have some racist prejudices about some group in our subconscious minds, however hard we’ve tried to eradicate them). Obviously the really racist white romance readers wouldn’t give these books a go, but for people who don’t want to be racist, and for whom the stereotypes are functioning on a subconscious level and who’re willing to make the effort of seeking out the AA and I/R romances, I think it could work.
So I don’t think the elimination of racism is a precondition of these books gaining greater popularity: I see AA romances as being part of the solution to racism, helping to fight it not necessarily by having big anti-racist themes, but just by showing AA people in a positive light as people who fall in love, do interesting jobs, want to get married etc.
I’m not suggesting in any way that that’s the only reason non-black readers should try AA and I/R romances, by the way. I was just addressing your point about racism. I’d hope people (of all colours) would give a range of different books a try because if they don’t, they might miss out on some books they’d really enjoy, and that would be a pity.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I read some AA romance but even as someone who seeks out a range of romance fiction they make it damned hard to find sometimes and the selection at Borders sucks. p.s. I don’t read the Tartan Bodice-rippers. I get that it’s a European form of wild west mythologising but the complete *wrong* accents bother me. Now if someone would write a romance with a real modern Scottish chav hero I’d be all over it. The real modern Scotsman is totally hotter than the mythical highland frollicking clansbabe.
May 10th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
This was a lot to read. It’s starting to remind me a hair of Obama’s former (tsk tsk on Obama for dumping him) minister, who is very, very threatening to white people who haven’t listened to everything he has to say. Yes, angry black people are scary to white people, I would agree with that.
Anyway, I don’t compare Roz to him, not by a long shot. The rant at white writers just befuddles me, honestly. I am about as white as you get (literally). I am struggling to get my books published at a large house. I did a booksigning at my local Borders, and the clientele basically marched right past me to the AA section (and yes, that’s what it’s called here). I figured, they are black, they want black protagonists. Okay. I am NOT suggesting that the market is not totally slanted towards white females. But that was the incident that made me really notice the segregation.
As I said, I tried to bring this up, and the response from black writers was, literally “back off.” I didn’t have a right to bring up a topic I think is socially relevant because I’m not black. So I did the next best thing I could think to do–I offered to BUY, read, and review any black romance brought to my attention on my blog. I was asked what I was doing to promote black writers if I thought it was such a problem, and that was about the best I could think to do. A painfree sale, and free promotion. Guess how many people took me up on it? You got it. None. My offer was posted many places, ended up on some black writer’s blogs, etc. Nada. All I have to offer is a token of effort–and I don’t mean Token with a capital T.
Here’s the thing I think no one is saying clearly: black writers don’t seem to agree on this issue (why should they, they all have different backgrounds, experiences, etc.). I got everything from “go away” to “do something” to “f-you.” I did get one “thank you, when my book is available I’ll send it.” I never got that book.
So please, keep ranting and raving to keep the dialog going, but don’t ask this white writer to go to bat anymore. I don’t understand the rules of the game, at all.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Ciar, blacks certainly all aren’t on the same page on this issue and I can see how fraught it is.
Why it’s fraught is that you’re not one of us and the reaction to overtures by someone deemed privileged can be tinged with envy and resentment.
Any rant at white (nonblack)writers might be rooted in the fact they have it good in comparison to black writers who are often constrained and defined by our race. It’s a bummer. White writers can’t help their privilege anymore than we can help the discrimination, so I understand it’s unfair. A lot of stuff is unfair.
I asked a prominent white author who’s written black characters how she could accept a prize for being the best writer of black romance when so many black authors are marginalized and ignored by the genre. She got quite salty with me. I bet she never even considered the question, and certainly didn’t accept any award out of malice. But that doesn’t change the fact the question needed to be asked.
What you did is all you can reasonably do, offer to read and review our books.
I’d (or I will) certainly send mine and I know a few other black authors who’d happily sent you their work, especially if the ensuing reviews were balanced and fair.
Another big but hard thing you can do, and it is what I wish white romance authors would do as a whole…if you write romance with black main characters, ask to be placed in the black romance section with all the other race-segregated romances or have it published with the race segregated lines instead of the romance lines a black author can rarely access. Your book will be marketed as if you were a black author and only available in black areas to black people.
If enough nonblack authors would step up and do this–refuse privilege and sit in the back of the bus with us, the message would get across. Black writers would also be kinder when these nonblack authors bring up the topic and we really could all work together. The white Civil Rights workers marched beside us, not alongside in limos.
I haven’t heard of one well-known nonblack author that has requested to be treated the same as black romance author.
I do know a few white authors who ARE published as black authors and they are considered our peers.
Anybody coming at such a hot topic from a place of privilege to those disadvantaged and discriminated–well, they’ll likely be resented…and possibly even cussed out.
That’s the rules of the game.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Well, I’ve been cussed out before on less important matters, so I think I can handle it, as long as I understand the why. I am well aware that while I’m a little economically challenged (my apartment complex is populated with mostly immigrants–legal and illegal–of Latino decent), I am in a generally priveleged group–middle aged white women with a good education. Any person in my demographic who denies racism within their “circle” is either stupid or lying. I work at a university that is probably as liberal as they come, but has had to use whites (myself included) for diversity recruiting on campus because there aren’t enough black scientists to be involved. It would be funny if it weren’t tragic.
I have written black secondary characters, but I usually write fantasy, and in those Utopian worlds, I’m generally just describing someone. I don’t know what it is to be black, or African American, or a Latina, or Chinese, or Jewish. We bleed red, we eat and breathe, we love and hate, we sin and pray and are redeemed. Culturally? I’d be lost. Would I get it “right” if I wrote about a blue-collar black carpenter or white-collar black CEO? I don’t know. I would try. But right now, I’m just trying to get on any shelf in the bookstore (beyond the one or two copies from my small press). In my neck of the woods, the AA area gets more traffic just because of the demographic.
Again, I don’t know the right thing to do, except keep my offer open. Thanks for listening to me. I can be naive, but I’m willing to be educated. At 51, I want to understand more, and it takes a lot to really scare me off a topic.
May 11th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Oh, one more thought. How do you feel about black romance writers who pretend they are white and get shelved in the non-black section? I know of one, because I was rather friendly with her for a while, before she got “biggish.” I can’t say I totally know her motives, and am not sure it’s all about sales.
And by the way, some time I’d like to tell you a story about my aunt, a Catholic sister, who lived and worked in New Orleans. She has been dead several years. If I told the story here, it would seem self-serving.
May 11th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
You can’t be self-serving on this blog, LOL!
I think black writers who want to write romance and have a chance on the majority romance playing field HAVE to pretend to be white or at least not black.
I would resent it, sure, but chortle all the way to the bank about pulling the wool over the romance community who exclude blacks.
Did you read my post about Black Not Black romance writers? Hell, we all should do it. That would show ‘em.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Hi.
I’m glad I found you. Having just has this same damn argument on LiveJournal, I kind of just feel like collapsing in a small, exhausted, “polite” heap at your feet.
*adding you to my Google feed*
May 13th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Where? I’d love to look in (but will likely keep silent, mainly because the racists who come out swinging rope turn my stomach).
May 13th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
LOL — Well, actually it’s just one person (whom I think is rather young), who was pretty resoundingly smacked down, and I’ve taken her over to private messaging.
The follow-up on IR on Smart Bitches was kind of a short burst of exhausting as well.
I have to stop doing this, really. My hands are shaking.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Monica, it’s not very fair to castigate me by showing tidbits of my posts, when in fact many of them were in support of the fact that AA authors should not be segregated in the American market.
For example:
“I’ll read anything romance. Skin colour has never been an issue for me and I could care less if the author is black, white or green with purple polka dots (although I’d suggests you get the polka dots looked at). And for what it’s worth, I’m heartily against segregating books because of their authors skin colour - AA as a genre, no different than erotic/paranormal/historical I have no problem with—but this is, in the majority, an American book store issue.”
Also your tidbit above from this paragraph entirely changes its meaning:
“The internet is a great thing, it lets anyone around the world find out about all sorts of wonderful things. It lets anyone around the world, whether they be black, white, asian, latin etc purchase my books. And it also lets anyone around see how much of ass an author can be and choose not to let their fingers do the walking and hit the buy button. Every single author, as a business person has to remember that and make the most of any opportunity thrown their way.”
The point I was trying to make was that this was a perfect opportunity to make the most of the advertising potential of the blog post, rather than the political - and it does always become political. Colour me naive, and kick me in my happy happy joy joy pants, but it can just be about the good romance sometimes. But I don’t shop (or browse the library) with a PC guideline in my head. I just want to know what the good stories are.
Also you’ll note I clarified further down when one thing I’d written was misread:
“”Could you explain why my righteous anger is seen as ‘being an ass?’ I haven’t stalked anyone or threatened their children. I’ve merely pointed out that there’s is discrimination going on. A fact that people have been talking about for more than five years now. In what way is that ‘being an ass,’ and somehow justifies someone not buying my book?”
I was referring not specifically to you, but to the ‘authors behaving badly’ potential. For me, authors behaving badly is gender/race/culture neutral.”
I also stood corrected on one of the points in one of the tidbits - I was proven to be wrong, so I said so:
“I stand corrected on the being race issue with publishers/agents based on the obvious experiences of others, and find that a sad state of affairs. And I was not inferring that anyone should hide their race to get a NY publishing contract, but that in fact race of the authors should be of little issue when it comes to romance. Romance should be about the romance, no matter who writes it.”
I also thought I asked a pertinent question in support of the AA authors being segregated in the book stores in America, when it wasn’t a standard in many other countries, and why could that not be used a platform for change:
“WHY is there one standard for America and another for elsewhere? WHY do the bookstores propagate segregation in the USA, but don’t apply the same standard elsewhere. There is the perfect platform—if the USA is supposed to be the world leader, why on earth do American bookstores allow this type of segregation? (Of course, there is always the potential for it to be turned about face, and authors come forward and say that their sales went through their roof after being shelved as AA versus that huge whopping great big confusing pile of books known as the romance aisle - because believe me, no matter how desperately I want my name on a book in that aisle, I also despair at anyone even finding it while browsing, because frankly, my eyes glaze over when browsing all those spines)
From what I observe, as a whole, the black community in the USA seems to have quite a loud voice, why has this voice not been raised to the media to see some sort of resolution, a cause for all authors to rally behind?(I ask this not accusingly, but as a genuine question)”
(to which people disagreed, but then it just goes to show the difference in peoples perceptions)
And yes, I know effectively I know I’m rising to the bait by posting here in defense, but I am for the side of the authors being singled out for their skin colour - it’s in no way fair.
And for what it’s worth, I’ll make my offer to increase exposure (although I can’t guarantee how big that exposure is, and if anyone will want to take me up on it):
I don’t usually do reviews on my blog, although the ones I have done have been received well, but to take Ciar’s offer a step further (heck I’ll even work with Ciar and do duelling reviews/combined reviews etc) make the same offer - Any AA authors who would like the exposure of a blog review are welcome to send me their release info and I will obtain (or if you’d like to send me an ARC/eBook) a copy, read it, and review it. I don’t make promises if the book is a wallbanger I’ll say so, but I’ll stand up with my naive, it’s just about the romance! cheerleader outfit on and put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.
(I’ll read any romance genre, and any grouping of sexes - and if they are BBW I’ll be in happy land)
May 16th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
I’d be happy to send my books to you and Ciar and I hope some authors take you up on it. I do note a few authors are leery until they see a number of balanced AA reviews. Most black authors are the same as any others at reviews. We know how to take ‘em, LOL!
All those comments were too long to copy any one person’s at length which is why I linked to the post and only gave a limited overview You are welcome to enlarge on your point of view, as you did.
I think our differences are summed up in your statement Skin colour has never been an issue for me
If you were black, I doubt you could type this in any context. I’m not getting on you, but you have got to realize the privilege inherent in being able to blithely type such a statement. You should realize how different and privileged you are in our particular market.
Back to your question:
why has this voice not been raised to the media to see some sort of resolution, a cause for all authors to rally behind?
It’s complicated. First, any voice we’d raise would be slapped down as being a Bad Negro (as I am and how Roz was)and what we’ve been given now possibly could be taken away. So folks are afraid to speak out on the issue. Some want to protect our little black only area, ’cause a few years ago we weren’t even allowed that. It’s like the House Negro complaining about their lot–they could have their privileges taken away and be thrown out into the field. That’s a big reason why we don’t band together. Also there’s the carrot of getting the House Negro position if we’re Good Negroes. One day there might be a Token Negro Romance Queen and it will certainly only go to a Good Negro, not one who complains. Like I said, American black and white culture is complicated.
May 16th, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I’ve posted on my blog that I’ll review any AA authors who care to send me, or let me know of their new releases (eBooks would be preferred if possible if authors are willing to send me an ARC). As most of my contacts relate to ePublishing, if you’d care to splash that around, feel free. I’ll contact Ciar and see if she would like to do a dual review on a randomly picked book over the next few weeks.
“I think our differences are summed up in your statement Skin colour has never been an issue for me
If you were black, I doubt you could type this in any context. I’m not getting on you, but you have got to realize the privilege inherent in being able to blithely type such a statement. You should realize how different and privileged you are in our particular market.” (okay, frick it, I’ve tried 4 times now to figure out how to get this to go into a quote!grr)
From my side of the fence, this is one of the few ways I can say I don’t feel that I am any better than anyone else when it comes to race (I won’t say class, because frankly I’d be lying because yes, I do want to keep up with the Joneses, fairly much everyone does). But unfortunately you see this as a statement of privilege, and I get the vibe that I will never be ‘coloured enough’ to make my opinion valid to you - even if I’m agreeing with you. And that’s really more of a personality issue. (As in you and me)
I, unfortunately, have no other way of being able to put that sentiment - In other words I’m damned if I do (I say I don’t care about race, and I’ll happily read anything and I’m perceived as being pc, pandering and paying lipservice), and damned if I don’t (I’m indifferent to anything but my own “white privilege”(which btw, for the last 6 years I’ve been a woman of no privilege, you might be surprised in some of the ways I might relate)).
The best suggestion I can make is that more AA authors investigate ePublishing. Author race is a non-issue as far as I know, and in fact most, if not all of the publishers are dead keen for IR/AA/Multicultural ms. The money’s not bad either, and by all reports a hell of a lot faster than NY. It’s the only suggestion I can make that offers authors that level playing field - pixels have no colour racially speaking.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
I am always amazed when reading these kerfluffles that people get pissy if someone who is oppressed feels PISSY about it… Spending so many of my younger years working in male dominated workplaces where I was subjected to verbal and physical harassment I spent a fair amount of my life PISSY as hell!
Black authors are segregated. its stupid… One of my favorite authors (I buy most of my books online) is LA Banks… I didn’t realize until I went into a borders one day that her books were shelved in the AA section. Why the heck weren’t they over in the sci fi or fantasy section with Lori Armstrong, Charlaine Harris, or one of the many other authors doing vampire/shapeshifter/paranormal books…. How the heck is someone who shops mostly in stores, looking for a paranormal going to know to go look in the (truly pitiful) AA section at my local Borders?
If I was a black author, I would be plenty pissed. Keep being angry. Frankly if you aren’t angry at this issue, you aren’t paying attention…
May 21st, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Seems my posts are getting eaten by the spam machine - prob because of the link.
I’ve got my first review up on my blogspt blog (hit my name in the comment title). Monica sent me an ARC so that will be review #2 for later this week, or early next.
May 21st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Didn’t see any of your comments in the spam jail. I’ll keep an eye out. I discourage an AA only review blog if that’s what you had in mind. Why not just add AA reviews to a romance blog?
sallahdog, I have no idea why some get so defensive over us being pissed. Generally a pissfest in Romanceland is cause for celebration.
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Too bad I missed this one. We just moved to Atlanta and I’ve been unplugged since the 8th. That convo wore me the hell out, but I’m glad we had it. Someone else will have to pick up the baton next time though. As you know, I can only refrain from multi-syllabic profanity for so long.
BTW, Loose-Id bought TALT. It’ll be out in August.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 am
CONGRATS! I’ll e-mail you privately as soon as this flu lets up and I can sit up comfortably more than 30 sec