Do you think the romance community would deign to discuss race…with blacks?
[Snort!]
I invited Sybil and her henchwomen to a discourse on race with other blacks. Ha! Think they’ll show up? Go ahead and exhale. Not that crowd. Open, fair discourse would be doing the courageous, intelligent thing.
They’re mad at me because ages ago…(this is a digression and not all that interesting)
Well, there are three posts in total that pissed them off…and the discussion at dearauthor.com which devolved into name calling on their part because they somehow can’t come off smarter than this here Negro [chortle!]
was set off by (nope, I didn’t comment):
…I won’t read Jackson for the same reason you don’t - I’m white and she rags all over white readers, so what’s the point. … And by the by, speaking of justification “in punishing the lot for the actions of one,” anybody wanna talk current African American animosity toward Caucasion people?
I tend to respond when addressed directly, thus my recent reponses to Jane at dearauthor.com, a Sybil fan.
pondering how black authors should deal with the many romance sites and venue that exclude us because we’re black.
Sybil has posted elsewhere that she doesn’t read romance written by black people and her site reflects that fact. I’m not judging Sybil as racist. I don’t particularly care whether she is or not. That’s not my point.
Here’s what I see. You call Sybil racist. She is offended and chooses not to make changes that you call for because that encourages you to go around calling people negative things in hopes that they change to comport to your wishes.
That’s how I see it.–Jane
Dear Jane, what about the possible fact that Sybil IS a racist? She stated her intent to discriminate based on race, and did so. Dictionary definition of a racist.
I truly don’t give a damn about Sybil or whether she is personally racist or not. I don’t see her near my level or interesting at all. She sputters, calls me names and curses. Like I give a damn what she says about me? Sheesh. Sybil to me is simply stands for a portion of the greater romance community as a whole. An ugly one that’s way too big.
Stay out of our romance community!
I think a HEAVILY moderated discussion with a large number of black authors might be a good thing. It likely won’t and couldn’t happen.
Particularly not with this mob, these women don’t want anything to do with blacks, period, much less reading romance with black people in them.
They’ve featured a token black romance author or two when guilted out (where are my thanks?) and then promptly forgot about them, not reviewing their subsequent books or any black authors at all. They ‘d be hard pressed to cite any black romance authors by name. Except Monica Jackson, of course, [chortle!]
Posted in Racifying Genre Fiction |
October 24th, 2007 at 2:04 am
I truly don’t give a damn about Sybil or whether she is personally racist or not.
That’s such a lie Monica. It seems to me that you’ve become quite bitter about it. You bring her up enough in your posts to warrant me saying that.
Sometimes you just gotta let things go, and I’m talking about your beef with Sybil.
October 24th, 2007 at 2:04 am
Monica, I think something that white romance readers and authors could do is spread a big petition around the Internet and then send it to all of the big romance publishing houses, condemning the segregation of African American romance authors from the genre. It would probably be a big step in the right direction for other genres as well.
I don’t really have much access to AA romance (case in point, lol) or to their personal blogs, but, as you’ve implied, probably part of the problem is that the romance community isn’t rallying around them in support. In fact, no one wants to touch the subject of racism in the romance genre with a ten foot pole for fear of offending someone and having it reflect badly on their reputation. And yes, a writer’s reputation is very important: I’d probably reconsider buying a certain author if I heard them spouting off homophobic or racist remarks somewhere on the Internet.
Things would definitely start moving faster if the white readership and authorship were actually supporting you guys and not looking the other way. Having a strike during the yearly RWA Conference would definitely also be amazing. But will the petition or strike happen anytime soon? Like you say, probably not… But in the next ten years? I can see it happening. If people start seriously talking about it on popular romance blogs and websites around the Internet.
I’d like to help show my support in little ways like this. Writing about it in my blog. Making a post about it on Suzanne Brockmann’s message board (she’s into social change and social action–she’s donating all the money made from her newest book to a gay marriage legal group, but she seems fairly removed from the real detriments that AA authors are facing), the LiveJournal romance community (largely made up of a younger generation of romance readers from a much more diverse background than the current pack who probably frequent RWA conferences), aaand I really really want to make a post about this on J.R. Ward’s message board, but I mentioned J.R. Ward + racism in my blog and they have not yet accepted my application to become a user of their message board. Coincidence? Maybe I’m just reading too much into it.
Keep preaching it, lady, because the truth never gets stale. ^_~
October 24th, 2007 at 2:19 am
*please excuse my terrible punctuation
Also, do you know of any popular reader romance blogs, similar to Romancing the Blog?
Karen: I think Monica (and all AA romance authors, for that matter) have a right to be bitter about a white romance author making a horrible, overtly racist comment on her blog and not being completely condemned for it by everyone in the romance community.
If none of the white romance authors condemned her or ostracized her for her remarks, what does that say about them? And the romance genre in general? Probably that some agree with her and that others just don’t want to get involved.
Sibyl has become the symbol for the passive racism that exists beneath the cheery, pink surface of the romance genre.
That’s my take on her “bitterness” anyway. Personally, I think it’s warranted.
October 24th, 2007 at 2:21 am
*Sorry, the above comment was from me.
October 24th, 2007 at 5:59 am
I too think that Monica is entitled to her anger over most importantly, the acceptance of bigoted statements such as this: “anybody wanna talk current African American animosity toward Caucasian people?”. So basically the author of that statement believes that two wrongs make a right? Doesn’t sound very mature or from someone who is clear-sighted.
Fine, Sybil or whomever don’t like to feel forced to read romance novels written by black authors, but I take umbrage with the fact that because of a dislike of being forced to do something, a person does absolutely nothing at all and perpetuates the wrong.
My stomach is churning with disgust as I type this because I can’t understand why a group of women, women who say they are educated and worldly, are completely unwilling to unite on this topic if not immediate picketing and petitions, at least to discuss the issue. All of the heavy blogger hitters will blog on topics like erotic romance, homosexuality and any other topic that even smells of “conservatism” and “closed-mindedness”, but won’t touch this particular subject with a ten foot pole.
Monica is called evil, but isn’t seeing a wrong and ignoring it even more evil? It really chips away at the respect I have for the romance genre as a whole.
October 24th, 2007 at 8:02 am
I finally got it! This deserves a post of its own.
Karen, your filter is through that British perspective, mine is as an American black woman.
I cannot see past the racism like you do. You can see a person who happens to be a bit biased maybe, but has redeeming qualities.
I see a racist. A racist who cannot be reasoned with or understood because they are evil. That’s my filter. It is that big.
It’s not just me. I’m sure many, many other people felt the same thing as they read her statements. Except they were only black people like me. The black Americans who have the same filter.
I cannot believe I am JUST getting this.
October 24th, 2007 at 8:11 am
I have went back and glanced at Sybil’s blog from time to time.
I notice the authors who are interviewed or featured there. I must admit I think differently of them.
Shiloh, who’s intelligent and does always keeps a level head, holds no water with me because she supports and upholds those people. Posts on their venues and does not attack the evil, instead attacks me.
It feels how a Jew would feel seeing others support a clear and stated anti-Semitic site. The anti-Semiticism trumps everything else about the site and the people who own it.
How can you deal with such people? The racism trumps everything for me, and others don’t even see it.
I don’t think we should dialog with the romance community anymore and my peers are far wiser for staying away. There are other good people who can do it, ones who aren’t struck to the core by racist statements, such as Karen and others.
Until we can understand other’s filters–and that includes me understanding seems to me their R-word hangups–there can be no meeting of the minds.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:40 am
I don’t see Monica’s beef as being with Sybil on a personal level at all. It’s with Sybil’s statements. If she made those statements, she is clearly discriminating on the basis of race and being very insensitively cruel and dismissive to every author of color there is. We don’t deserve that. If she had an issue with Monica’s style of expressing things, she should’ve addressed that - not denounced AA books on account of her distaste for Monica. That was just a lame excuse and did nothing to cover up her dismissive feelings.
Having said that, it’s hard to call white people out about being racist when many blacks are equally as racist, and are not doing themselves what they want from others. Setting up black only, or black-focused organizations and groups is just as racist as these romance organizations that don’t, or won’t, be more inclusive of AA authored books.
I think the thing to do is to be the change you wish to see in the world, as Gandhi said….How many a black author saw the wisdom in Millenia Black’s being offended and canceling that book signing when the store asked her race? If we don’t want race to matter more than it does, we have to stop making it matter more than it does. Too many black writers are too busy being “black”, and all that nonsense, to contemplate how that comes across to anyone who isn’t black.
Okay, leaving my soap box now. This just gets me really riled up.
October 24th, 2007 at 10:02 am
How about organizing a retreat or panel discussion of some kind on the issue of race in publishing? Just an idea, but I’m sure many authors would be willing to join in on a progressive, moderated discussion on the issue. Invite a range of panelists to participate: white authors, black authors, editors, booksellers, etc. We may be surprised at who would be willing to participate and contribute to being part of the solution. Action is needed, education is needed - talking and blogging on the issue is fine to spread awareness. Now it’s time to educate and place verbs into the resolution. Karen’s survey effort was a bust, nothing came of it, it trailed off without so much as a whimper. And many mainstream venues behave as though they’re doing nothing more than handing the poor, underprivileged AA author a favor when they make any mention of racial issues. They don’t see it as the segregate atrocity that it is.
It’s sad to think that the first time the segregative nature of the industry was challenged was when Millenia Black dared to say it was wrong for her work to be labeled AA fiction when there wasn’t a single AA character to be found. Sad to think no one else questions why more AA authors don’t get the chance to appear on the NYT bestseller list.
It’s time those who are affected, and those who really want to see a change, start creating one.
October 24th, 2007 at 10:15 am
BSA, I have always seen your point about Black-focused orgs being racist too–but what else are we to do?
The greater romance community will not include blacks as a whole. We are on the fringes of their orgs if we join and their orgs NEVER address our issues.
I’m a member of NINC and I think they’d be insulted and a shitstorm would occur if I brought up any issues black authors deal with. I know it would happen with RWA (no longer a member).
We need an org too. We need the same sort of solidarity they have. What to do?
October 24th, 2007 at 10:37 am
This is probably not the place for this question, but I was thinking about it the other day and then the race thing came up on Dear Author.
I am one of those completely naive readers who didn’t realize that there was romance (and other genres like suspence and mystery) shelved in the AA section.. I know, should come out of my hole occasionally.
So I have been glomming and reading a lot from this section of the bookstore (mostly amazon though,because my local borders has a pitiful AA section.)
I can find both couple black, bf/wm, but none that I could find black man with a white woman. Are their any good ones with that kind of a pairing out there? If not, why not(in your opinion). I mean, I see this pairing a lot in real life, so why not in books?
If you want me to post this question somewhere else I would be happy to. Sorry if its in the wrong place.
October 24th, 2007 at 10:40 am
Who is that Genesis author who wrote nothing but white woman/black man pairings?
Somebody help!
I think the reason is that there are so few is that mostly black women write I/R and aren’t fantasizing about any black man/white woman pairing.
And for some reason most white romance authors don’t do this too–although it is the case more often in real life.
Did Barbara Samuels write any like this? I recommend anything she wrote and I know she’s written black characters before.
October 24th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
If we didn’t have our own organizations, we wouldn’t have a place to unify. Racism runs rampant through this nation in all areas of life it seems. 2007 or 1960…frankly, it’s getting hard to tell the difference. Backward we are going. In order for a change to be made, there would have to be unity on both sides. A few people speaking out or even recognizing that it’s even an issue doesn’t solve the issue. Facing the issue head on would at least move it forward.
October 24th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
I think the reason is that there are so few is that mostly black women write I/R and aren’t fantasizing about any black man/white woman pairing
hmmm… I wonder if that isn’t the problem sometimes with white women romance readers, they don’t fantasize about being a black woman with a white (or black for that matter)man so they don’t think AA authored romance is for them…
Personally I started out reading sci fi, so I can imagine pretty much anything… I will check out Barbara Samuels, I have read some Genisis books before and wasn’t too impressed but will try them too…
Maybe we need black male authors to write romance novels… Lets see what they are fantasizing about…heheh… or not… Some things are better left to the imagination.
October 24th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
You got several black males writing romance and some great gay stuff too.
Wayne Jordan
R. Barri Flowers
Fred Smith
There are more! My brain is shut down. I will post more.
Black men in romance deserve a post too.
October 24th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
thanks monica, I will check out some of the guys work. I try to keep an open mind.. Although when I saw a picture of “Jennifer Wilde” about 25 years ago and realized “she” was a middle aged guy, it seriously put me off… having reread one of those books a few months ago, maybe that was a good thing… heh..
October 24th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Sallahdog, if you don’t mind reading ebooks and erotic romance there are several WF/BM books at Loose-Id and Ellora’s Cave. You’ll be able to tell most of them by the covers.
October 24th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
thanks Barbara, I don’t read many in ebook form, but I will check it out…
October 24th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
We need an org too. We need the same sort of solidarity they have. What to do?
I’m not saying we don’t need an org, too, but we can’t have it be centered around the fact that we’re black. That doesn’t encourage everyone to support it and the trials we face by being marginalized in the industry. Create an organization just like RWA that DOES NOT exclude any work. It’s bad enough RWA, etc. focus on the works of white writers, we aren’t doing any better if we do the same thing, just focusing on black writers. We need to do what we want them to do.
October 24th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
I agree with BSA Pontif. The only reason why there are special issues related to being a black genre fiction writer is because of the people at the top. The publishing houses with their “black imprints” that lump all types of genres under one umbrella because the authors and characters happen to be black, and the booksellers who segregate the books and then don’t even hand-sell them because they don’t read them because they see them as “Other”, or that new author doesn’t get the push from their imprint the way their non-black counterpart is (compare the fanfare a new non-black author receives compared to a new black author). The people at the top are dictating how things go because the people at the bottom–the agents, writers and readers–are not banding together to show that hey, what you’re doing isn’t healthy or fair.
To be honest, those black imprints do feel patronizing, and the fear shown by black authors who feel being shelved in with their genre will hurt their sales, merely reiterates the assumption that black writers don’t have the quality to compete alongside them. You may pound into their heads that Ann Christopher’s contemporary romance is no inferior than Rachel Gibson’s, but when a reader discovers that the latest Christopher isn’t even shelves with the latest Gibson, it subconsciously says that the book wasn’t as good as the Gibson to warrant being placed in the romance section.
I too think a retreat of some sort should be organized. Or you know what? Challenge the RWA. Pitch a workshop/panel discussion for next year’s convention with yourself, other black authors, readers, etc. If the women at Dear Author and Smart Bitches were willing to go this year, why wouldn’t they be willing to go next year as part of a panel? Put their reputation to use.
October 24th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
[...] to enter the fray after the flames had died to a crackling ember. But BSA Pontif made a really good point over on Monica’s blog: “How about organizing a retreat or panel discussion of some kind [...]
October 25th, 2007 at 3:32 am
I haven’t kept up with the thread that precipitated all this (because it looked like it was getting long and angry), but re
That really sounds like what Rachel is describing here.
On the bits of the thread I did read, it seemed to me that it was understandable that Monica would respond because there was a reference to her in the post. But because that reference was thrown in almost as an aside, I can see how some people might feel that Monica’s intervention was derailing the thread and taking it away from what they saw as the main issue (the discussion about the legal definition of what constitutes defamation). So that put Monica in a difficult position once she decided to respond.
and
I think you’re right that it’s probably a matter both of degree (how blatant the racism is) and perspective (how aware a person is of racism and its manifestations). Some people are more racist than others and some people are more aware of, and have been hurt more by, racism than others. Someone who’s racist by habit (e.g. they think in stereotypes because they haven’t had those stereotypes challenged) might be more likely to be open to change if they’re not put on the defensive. But someone who’s deeply committed to a racist ideology isn’t at all likely to change their minds. Someone who’s been deeply hurt by the effects of racism is more likely to have a strong emotional response to seeing racist comments, whereas someone who’s got more distance on the issue might not feel so strongly and/or might be more optimistic about the possibility of change.
Can I draw a parallel with feminism? It seems to me that some of the most vehement, radical Second Wave feminists had suffered a lot, and so they were loud in speaking out about sexism. And that did bring about change, but it also created negative feelings against them. Third Wave feminists, who’ve grown up in a less institutionally sexist society may not sound as angry as a radical Second-Waver, and may be able to accept more things in an ironic, post-modern or “reclaiming the label” sort of way. I’m not saying that either of these groups is right or wong: they’re different, and they’re different because of their different experiences.
The debate about specially labelled “black” organisations reminds me a lot of the woman-only university colleges, women-only discussion groups etc. When prejudice runs deep, this sort of defensive measure is vital. When the prejudices are less obvious, that’s when people begin to question the need for them. And, of course, along with that you then have the difference in perspectives between the different “waves” with their different experiences.
October 25th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Laura, I think you’re right and most Americans are those unconscious habit types rather then the entrenched KKK kinds.
They honestly don’t see themselves as racist.
But some are, some so are and they hurt us far more than ones who can label themselves racists. In my book they are evil, nasty, racist bitches, whether they think they are or not–a racist is a racist. It is hard for me to be nice to them.
But they are the ones who possibly be talked down out of it if babied or pampered enough. Poor little baby (insert racist bitch euphemism here) you are all right, a wonderful person. Let’s hold hands, sing kumbayah and look at it this way.
I am obviously not the one to do so.
That anu is good, isn’t she? Very bright.