I wanted to cite Rachel’s post (link at the end), brought to my attention by the erudite Laura.
I am struck by how common this phenomenon is. The basic pattern that these discussion follow is:
- White person makes incredibly racist statements.
- Some people express outrage over those statements; others seek to downplay the statements.
- Those who want to downplay the statements are able to win the “hearts and minds” of the vast majority of whites, who want operate by the anything but racism philosophy.
The conversation the turns to how it really isn’t racist or wasn’t intention of the person. Since this allows people to think it is not that person’s fault, they then proceed to the last step.
- Blaming the real victims of racism.
In the romance race discussions, we don’t even get to the part where some people express outrage over the racist statements. Everybody either remains silent or seeks to defuse, deflect or downplay them. When I respond the incredibly racist statements, the best deflectionis to be outraged and say I called them personally racist or made them uncomfortable whether they were the person I was referring to or not.
What was also disturbing about that thread was that all of the black women, especially Angel H. and Ann, were dismissed or ignored as if their perspectives weren’t important, which was incredibly insulting since the racist and sexist comments by Imus were directly at Black women.
Almost anything a black woman says in a romance race discussion, unless it’s criticizing the Bad Negro or addressing the incredibly racist statement in a careful and pandering manner is dismissed or attacked.
On the upside, there were several people challenging Brandon, but as the thread went along racism apologists started to outnumber (or it was at least equal) the people saying Imus’s comment was not racist. Then at some point the discussion ended up moving away from the original content, and the racism apologists helped move us to a discussion of what is racist and who is racist. They wanted to define racism so narrowly that almost nothing is defined as racist.
Apologists come out everywhere. I find it’s very popular to address HOW something is said and criticize the person who addressed the incredibly racist statements directly, instead of a comment defusing, redirecting or kindly excusing it.
Here’s what frustrates me: we need to talk about white people’s role in racism. We need to have a discussion about white racism that is not derailed.
After all, Whites hold the vast majority of power in the US (and in the global political and economic institutions), and we have the most influence over racism.
We need to stop pretending that Hip Hop, or Black criminals, or anyone who acknowledges racism is the problem. The analogy I have used for the past 10-15 years is the analogy of alcoholism. One of the basic tenets Alcoholics Anonymous is that a person has to acknowledge his or her alcoholism before he or she can get better. Well the same is true for white racism.
No matter what people of color are doing. We whites don’t need to make an excuse, saying when Black people do better then we will stop being racist. First, it unfair to make glaring generalizations about how bad black people are based on the behavior of a select few blacks, and second, we don’t have to wait for every black person (Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans, too) to be perfect before we stop being racist.
If we want to stop racism, we have to acknowledge that the problem is ours. We need to have a conversation about ourselves where racism is at the forefront. We need to stop the distraction tactics, stop the victim mentality, stop the whining, and focus on what we can do better.
This pattern of behavior needs to stop. Just like alcoholism, white racism doesn’t need enablers, and it doesn’t need excuses. For racism to stop we need whites to acknowledge the problem and then to start working on it.
Stop whining, using victim mentality, and whining some more to detract from the important topic by using whatever I said in response to some incredibly racist statement!
Thank you, professor (a white woman, BTW)
All I can say is the sheets are coming off. Another noose was found in the breakroom of a local hospital here. From the internet to the breakroom, will racism ever end? We’re going backwards instead of forward. Being from the south, I can say when I know a person is a racist, I can deal with them better; but those who hide and pretend; now those you definately need to be careful of, because they are just lurking and waiting to stab you in the back.
Thanks for calling me erudite, Monica, but I really feel pretty ignorant about so much that goes on in the US. We studied a bit of American history and literature at school, and of course we’re exposed to US films and discussions about the big, newsworthy American events or foreign policy issues, but the more I find out, and the more time I spend online interacting with Americans, the more I realise how little I know, and the more it seems very, very different from the UK.
The way Karen Scott reacts to stuff makes me feel it’s very different too.
Shoot, I’m almost ready to emigrate. Anybody got an extra room?
I hear Canada–especially Vancouver–is very nice and diverse. I so want to go.
Or maybe I’ll just return to my cave, the one that doesn’t have Internet.
I don’t know about emigrating to the UK Monica, from what I’m now hearing, it–nor is Europe–the bastion for a racist-free society. Not to make assumptions about a continent I would dearly love to visit, but from reports of African immigrants getting hacked to death with a chainsaw in Switzerland, to black people being assaulted with no repercussions in Russia, to Black immigrants in the UK suffering from mental health issues, if not the seething resentment shown towards immigrants and Muslims in general, etc, Europe is no longer the land of equality for people of color that it was up to the 1970s.
But to get back on topic, I love Rachel. It irritates me to no degree that when white on black racism is brought up, it turns into a “who had it worse”, a “black people are racist too”, and “black people do stuff to one another already” argument. And black people aren’t alone because I’ve seen those sort of tactics used to discredit the tribulations of Asians and Muslims. I had to bite my tongue against saying something I’d regret when over at Dear Author, Robin used the “who had it worse” tactic and failed to understand what I was saying when I outlined the strongholds we all must fight to overcome in concern to black-authored romance.
To me, it sometimes seems that the DA ladies are so “open-minded, enlightened and intelligent” that having a debate with them (esp Robin) feels like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall.
That brick wall element is why we need a discussion panel at RWA!
I was a member of RWA for years. They are hard core on the whole. It makes the crowd at dearauthor seem like innocents. Remember the blogging crowd tends to be liberal and gets an hard-on for liberal causes such as erotica in romance.
The RWA crowd tends to the conservative. An open and honest panel on race with blacks speaking frankly? Sheesh.
Angela,
Now you know how I feel
Robin ALWAYS says the same damn thing in any venue about race.
1. Criticizing HOW anything concerning race is said if not ass-kissed to the hilt and saying stuff isn’t really racist, minimizing it (one thread, I can’t remember where, she said it was racialist, whatever that means–seemed racist as hell to me).
2. Bringing up Asians, Hispanics, whatevers to deflect the topic.
She ALWAYS heavily criticizes me in long-winded posts and I’m supposed to take it. THEN see how she reacts at some criticism. Sheesh.
I have thought about this question for a while
Where can black people live and raise their families to be safe, secure and free of the taint of racism?
Anywhere in the world?
Africa is out for me because of the safety and security issues.
Oh God I do Monica! I was just the recipient of one of her long chastisements where she put her own meaning to my words and put words in my mouth. It’s uncanny…
“Europe is no longer the land of equality for people of color that it was up to the 1970s”
But there was the rise of fascism in the 1930s and 1940s, and “As mass immigration continued in the 1950s, so did the rise of racial violence and prejudice. Many areas including Birmingham, Nottingham and west London experienced rioting as white people feared the arrival of a black community.” (BBC)
Re the current state of race relations in the UK, the Commission for Racial Equality, just before it was merged with the Disability Rights Commission and the Equal Opportunities Commission, to make the new Equality and Human Rights Commission, published a report, “A lot done, a lot to do” (you can get a pdf version from here).
It gives lots of statistics and proposals for what still needs to be done, as well as outlining what has already been done. I’m not sure how the situation described in that report would compare to the one in the US. Do you have the equivalent of a CRE or EHRC in the US? It’s a “non-departmental public body (NDPB) established under the Equality Act 2006 – accountable for its public funds, but independent of government”.
Another thing I found on the BBC website was a 2002 poll which found that:
racism in the workplace is a major problem – with almost one in three blacks and Asians saying they believe racism has cost them the chance of a job.
But it also suggests widespread acceptance of mixed-race relationships.
Half of all those asked say they would marry or have a relationship with someone from another race. [...]
More than half of each group said they feel that Britain is now more tolerant racially than it was 10 years ago.
But of all those questioned, 51% said they felt Britain is a racist society. That view was shared by 52% of whites and 53% of blacks.
Among Asian respondents, 41% said they believe Britain is racist compared with 45% who rejected the suggestion.
Laura,
Siiiiiiigh.
Any ports in the storm? Maybe we have to buy a island somewhere.
Hopped over from Sheila Goss’s blog. Not even sure what to say beyond the fact that as I get older, I’m losing any hope that racism is something will ever end.
BTW, the settlers of America came from European countries that had slaves for long periods before America was founded, both in Europe and in the Caribbean. So its in the roots of European culture as well as American culture, even if, for the most part, slavery was abolished overseas before it was abolished here.
I guess this post and the attendant comments are part and parcel of the mistrust that seems to be on all sides. Robin has her POV and her way of talking about things, and she sees Angela’s comments as a trap—she thinks you’re saying, sure you talk about racism, but it’s not the right way. Angela sees a setup too—sure, you think you’re addressing racism, but you’re really not and probably really don’t want to.
It’s discouraging. I dunno know, I guess we just keep trying, hope it ends up somewhere positive somehow.
The way Karen Scott reacts to stuff makes me feel it’s very different too.
Of course the way I react is different, that’s because I am an individual.
I think secretly, you expect me to wholly understand where you’re coming from because I’m black too, but it doesn’t really work like that. I’m my own person, and if I don’t like something, I’ll say so.
I’ve said it once, and I’ll say it again, the question of racism in romance is relevant, but you can’t call people racist, and expect them to hear your argument. Of course there are people out there who wont read a book because it happens to have black characters, but you still can’t paint everybody with the same brush in one fell swoop, because that generally tends to derail a serious discussion.
The minute the tone of your posts changed, then most everybody else’s changed too, and the discussion became more analytical, and less accusatory. Surely that’s what you want from a debate on racism? (Bianca doesn’t count, because she was obviously in her own little world.)
Here in Britain, racism is widespread, but like I’ve said many times before, I’ve got better things to do than worry about the ignorant, and the feckless, unless it personally affects me.
You only have to look at the number of blacks who hold professional, and senior management level positions in the work place, to know that here in England, we are a long way behind you guys.
Karen, I consider you different, not only because you’re an individual, but you come from a different culture than I do.
I get so frickin’ pissed at the racist comments and attacks and I respond.
When I respond, everybody junps on me and ignores whatever incredibly racist statement.
So, it seems you think me saying something IS racist is worse than saying something racist. The latter seems just dandy with everyone.
Jane mentioned me in that post in a critical way, along with the race issue. Last time we bumped heads on the issues was over her apparently bestest bud Sybil. I dismiss Sybil because I simply don’t think she’s my equal in any direct debate. Sybil curses and calls juvenile names and insults. That’s the entirety of her repertoire. Not even worth a response. You and Jane are different however.
That’s just fine, but calling her racist based on her completely racist statements and discriminatory actions apparently isn’t.
Jane and you got upset I attacked Sybil by calling her racist and not in the least over her statements. I still don’t understand. Calling Sybil racist based on her statements is like calling the frickin’ sky blue. That’s being mean?
Can I call David Duke racist based on his statements? There are degrees, but her statements were racist.
I don’t even have to call anybody racist for folks to say I called everybody racist. I can be talking about racism as in as a concept, not as any individual.
But all these overly-sensitive to be called racist (why, since if you aren’t racist, you aren’t. Idiots can call me racist as the day is long and I’ll shrug, Why are THEY so sensitized and worried somebody POSSIBLY called them racist if they aren’t? sheesh)
Racism in romance exists, pretending it doesn’t and attacking me for bringing it up and protecting and defending people who discriminate against black romance authors isn’t going to help the issue.
You only have to look at the number of blacks who hold professional, and senior management level positions in the work place, to know that here in England, we are a long way behind you guys.
But then, proportionally, there are far more black people in the US in general (around 12% or so of the population), whereas in England and Wales it’s around 2% or so, so you can’t just look at the numbers of people, you have to work out what proportion they are relative to the totals in the population as a whole.
According to the CRE report I mentioned before:
Much has been done over the last three decades to tackle discrimination in employment, with some success, and our statutory code of practice on employment has been widely used by
employers throughout the country to help them improve their policies and practices (see opposite). But we do not yet have a truly
level playing field when it comes to work: over the last twenty years, there has been a consistent gap between rates of employment for
ethnic minorities (60%) and the overall employment rate of over 75%. The employment rate is even lower for Britons of Bangladeshi
(44%) or Pakistani origin (45%) and for black Britons of African descent (57%). According to research by Dr Val Singh, during 2005 only one UK-born black director was appointed, with people from ethnic minorities still only representing 2.4% of all directors in FTSE 100 companies. In total, ethnic minorities make up 7.9 per cent of the total population of the United Kingdom.
I’ve tried googling to find comparable US figures and this, from 1999, is a bit out of date but it’s the best I could find without spending hours on this: “only 6 percent of the directors are members of minority groups”. In 2000, 75.1% of the US population were classified as “white” in the census, so that means 24.9% are other ethnic groups.
So we’ve got UK – 2.4% of directors compared with 7.9% of the population.
US – 6% of directors compared with 24.9% of the population.
My maths isn’t great (I was always better with words), so it could be that I’m trying to do something stupid in what follows, but I think that suggests that in the UK minority representation in boardrooms would have to be multiplied by around 3.3 to give you a level of representation that matched the proportions of ethnic minority people in the general population and in the US the figure would have to be multiplied by 4.15.
Obviously the figures from the US and the UK aren’t from the same time period (there’s roughly a 5 year gap), and the US figures may not be from the equivalent of the FTSE 100 companies, so I’m not saying we’re comparing like with like here, but I think there’s a big enough margin there to make me think that the UK may possibly be doing slightly better than the US and probably isn’t “a long way behind you guys,” but clearly there’s lots of room for improvement in both countries.
anu,
Robin is oversensitive. I’ve stroked Robin and said it was all right…who does that to me. Did she or you? Nope.
Robin is fine, like a lot of people, except more analytical. I didn’t even think she realized what she was doing, but it was repeatedly annoying as hell.
When I mention it, even obliquely, I’m ATTACKING her and folk come out of the woodwork to jump on me.
Angela noted the exact same thing I’ve noticed over a looooong damn time and said something.
It’s like everybody else considers themselves damn near perfect. The only one allowable to be criticized is moi.
I admit that the issue of racism does not seem to be going away anytime soon, for reason not obvious.
Think of the reason why we have different races and factors creating ethnic selfhness. Those are things of long ago and we of peresent day have no clue of those thing. It’s therefore most impossible to say or do any one thing to cause even a slight dent into the problem.
What we to do then? Keep talking and go to court where things can be affected.
After my last post, I was out. My eyes glazed over and I realized that nothing was being accomplished, we were just going around in circles.
Angela:
Hindsight reveals that actual slavery lasted a few centuries before posterity produced people that were willing to give up even their lives to change the evil of race discrimination.
Things are slightly different today because living condition have improved compared to those times. It gets so much more complicated these days attributed to the achievements of many minority folks, who just don’t give a damn about racial issues no more.
Oh no, successful blacks like authors, attorneys and other professionals can’t speak out because it will cause them to lose what has put them into the privileged white people company.
But things are beginning to change though, as seeing the boldness of Millenia Black’s attempt to take on her publisher in Federal court over long standing discrimination in publishing. When enough is enough, some people will get too angry to cut tracks around the problem.
Racism in romance exists, pretending it doesn’t and attacking me for bringing it up and protecting and defending people who discriminate against black romance authors isn’t going to help the issue.
Nobody’s attacking you for bringing it up Monica, (well, at least, not everybody) most of the beef is with you painting everybody with the same broad brush. People always react badly to being lumped together, especially when it’s something as incendiary as being branded a racist.
Robin is oversensitive. I’ve stroked Robin and said it was all right…who does that to me. Did she or you? Nope.
Well, if that’s not a case of seeing what you wanna see, I don’t know what is. As far as I can tell, Robin goes out of her way to understand where you’re coming from, and actually defends you a hell of a lot more than you deserve sometimes. Long-winded posts or not, she takes the time to at least see both sides of the story.
Laura, ratios notwithstanding, I still think we are a long way behind America in terms of equality. Stats can say what they want to, but I’m willing to bet that nobody came to my part of the country to conduct a survey, on how well blacks are doing, in comparison to their white counter parts.
What I will concede however, is that over here, all the main political parties are much more liberally minded (yes even the Conservatives) than the Americans, and racism is an issue that they dare not let taint their political ambitions, so everybody walks round on eggshells when it comes to race-based discussions.
I watched a Question Time programme a couple of years ago, where one of the panel (representative of the Conservatives, if I recall correctly) had a hard time using the word ‘black’, in relation to black people. It was just so bizarre.
So I’m jumping in. In for a penny or a pound or a career. I on’t get a lot of traffic to my site, but I’m going to to a series of posts on the subject. I have to hope that if one keeps on talking eventually someone will answer. Eventually we’ll get to the point where enough people will want to do something.
Good Seressia, I will definitely visit.
Karen, that is the problem I’m NOT painting everybody with the same brush. Oversensitive, tender folks are making assumptions. I brand few people racist and only based on their actions or statements.
Sybil is fair game. She said she excluded black authors from her site, at least for the most part, and looking at her reviews and interviews she practices what she preached.
Racism is defined as discriminating on the basis of race. A few have earned the title. The rest are just screaming into the wind. Nobody has called them racist but their own conscience
As we’ve been making comparisons between the US and the UK, I thought it was interesting to see these two items on the BBC website. Yesterday evening there was this:
That’s from here. Breaking news today is that:
To borrow Mr Malik’s diplomatic language, neither of those reports “inspire confidence” in me.
Laura, being of Asian descent in the UK at the moment is no picnic, for obvious reasons.
I’m guessing that they are probably having it much harder these days than blacks.
Laura, being of Asian descent in the UK at the moment is no picnic, for obvious reasons.
Ok, color me stupid, but what is the obvious reason? I have had my head in the sand the last few months working on projects that had to get done, I didn’t even watch the local news (last weeks cold snap caught me by surprise)….
I came really late to this party, but I can completely see why Monica would be outraged by the cavalier lip service that gets paid to racism in book publishing..
Its not my ox getting gored, but I have seen enough of it in the womens movement that I can see where she is coming from..
Worry more when Monica is no longer passionate about the subject and just puts her head down and deals with her own personal stuff… Its whats happened to me, and frankly I think its a sign I am getting old.
“Ok, color me stupid, but what is the obvious reason?”
Well, I imagine it’s the same reason Mr Malik’s been stopped and searched twice in the US, despite being a government minister. His luggage was “analysed for explosives.”
According to this 2005 report in the Guardian:
and there’s this more recent data, from August 2007:
oh, ok… color me stupid again…. When someone says Asian in my neck of the woods, it would mean more like someone from Japan, as opposed to Middle Eastern..
Here in Kansas, we have a large Muslim community and often women wearing their traditional headgear get some pretty horrible comments… I find it very sad..
Laura,
I’m always astonished by the cultural gulf too. Asian to me means the Korean/Chinese/Japanese sort also. We forget the other peoples the word encompasses too. I wonder why?
sallahdog,
You’re in Kansas?! I’m not anymore, but in Topeka, one of the most intolerant places in the nation I do suppose, there was a large mosque.
If something happens, I can easily see that particular U.S. conservative stripe of person going hogshit on the Southern, darker Asian variety.
I live in the Kansas city metro area, I used to live in Topeka… Topeka was much worse than Johnson county, but intolerance is pretty much everywhere… My husband says its not bad here at all, but I tell him that people are usually just more “polite” about it…
I would say though, that its not the US born blacks who have it the worst here(in an in your face racism way), right now it would be the middle eastern or frankly, anyone who is not US born..
oh, ok… color me stupid again…. When someone says Asian in my neck of the woods, it would mean more like someone from Japan, as opposed to Middle Eastern..
It’s not you being stupid, it’s a reflection of how arbitrary the divisions into “races” are.
and
Because the definitions of “race” are pretty much made up, quite where the boundaries are drawn can vary a lot. While I was googling, I came across this, which I thought was interesting too re the use of “Hispanic” in the US:
Oh, but to clarify a bit, Pakistan used to be part of “British India“, which was a lot bigger than modern India, so it doesn’t count as part of the “Middle East”. The “Middle East”
is a historical and political region of Africa-Eurasia with no clear boundaries. The term “Middle East” was popularized around 1900 in Britain, and has been criticized for its loose definition. The Middle East traditionally includes countries or regions in Southwest Asia and parts of North Africa. (from Wikipedia).
There’s also the rather vague term Far East:
It was well popularized in the English language during the period of the British Empire as a blanket term for lands to the east of British India. [...] In Orientalist usage, it evokes cultural as well as geographic separation; that is, it evokes a locale which is not just geographically distant, but also culturally exotic. Far East never refers, for instance, to the culturally Western nations of Australia and New Zealand , which lie even farther to the east of Europe than much of East Asia.
China and Japan would be in the “Far East”.
I’m always astonished by the cultural gulf too. Asian to me means the Korean/Chinese/Japanese sort also. We forget the other peoples the word encompasses too. I wonder why?
Monica, those definitions, particularly the one of “British India” probably answer your question. The UK had a very, very large Empire, and that’s affected the pattern of migration to the UK and also which countries the UK still has ties to. Those are different to the ones the US has because each superpower has/had a different “backyard”.
And now I realise how many very long posts I’ve made, I want to apologise. I just get a bit carried away once I start googling and finding exciting things to quote.
Never apologize! I find your info fascinating although it’s so concrete and complete I sometimes have nothing to add.