I’m glad the romance community is finally addressing the issues of blacks in the genre. Karen Scott is making a fine effort to include black experiences and opinions about the issue on her blog.
But when the discussion comes up in romance venues, generally we can’t directly participate without being willing to be lynched. At the heart of the issue is racism, and that word is taboo for blacks. So nonblack romance readers and authors blithely discuss our issues while we lurk. Oftentimes clueless, and without insight into our world, the comments are quite offensive. How can the romance community expect blacks to participate in such discussions when hatred is so well-tolerated, but us using the word that defines our plight, isn’t?
Case in point:
The moderators at dearauthor.com post topics on race when the issue is getting attention in the romance community.
Few blacks bother to interact or deal with that board, because it’s fairly obvious (to us) where their sentiments lay (and that is not with us, but at least they are interested, which is more than some and I commend them for that). After the race-related posts goes up, then the black-bashing is on. It’s open season with folks discussing our issues with no blacks actually participating (other than the rare, lone, veeeery careful comment).
There is a poster called Teddy Pig who apparently posts at dearauthor.com and at SBTB frequently.
When the discussion is racial, his comments clearly show he hates black issues and anybody black having any opinion or experience related to race.
He personally hates me too, although I haven’t responded to him specifically and don’t know her, her, it from Adam. But hey, I’m the one of the extremely few black authors who bothers to participates in discussions about blacks on their boards. Thus I’m a bad, uppity N-word to those who loathe blacks.
I, being reckless and having no fear, like to comment when nonblacks are discussing blacks, since some of these people spouting off about blacks and our issues apparently don’t ever actually talk to black people, much less seek our opinions.
There are always thoughtful, sensitive people at such discussions, but offensive comments against blacks are readily accepted. I’m sure many black authors would take profound offense to the things one of the moderators posted on their last foray about black race if she posted the exact same things on a black venue, but I notice some prefer to talk about us only with others who share her/his sentiments about blacks. I invite those to at least copy their comments to a black author’s discussion board for another POV. Please do. Wearing asbestos would be fine.
Teddy Pig apologized to a nonblack commenter who was supporting him, (I’m told likely at the urging of a moderator) but questioned attacks in general on me specifically. Then he attacked her too for supposedly defending me.
Jane replies:
March 19th, 2007 | QuoteTeddy Pig – we don’t want you to not comment because I think your viewpoints are valid, even if I don’t agree with all of them. And it takes a big person to apologize in public. Thank you for being part of the community.
Here’s the only posts I’ve commented about race on that site that I recall. Note Teddy Pig’s appreciated comments.
Racism in Publishing
Does Romance Need the Rooney Rule
At the latter post, Jane ridiculously brings up the point that white romance readers be obligated to read black-authored books in a sort of literary affirmative action. No black authors have crap to say at such an offensive supposition. I leave it alone too, because anything I’d say, particularly the slightest criticism, would cause a shitstorm, and address some other or roundabout points.
Disclaimer: I have sent things into DearAuthor.com for review and communicated with Jane, who overall seems intelligent and reasonable (actual, real interface with black people on an equal basis about how w’re affected by race is a challenge for lots of folks). It’s a solid and well-trafficked site. But why would black commenters ever participate when the likes of Teddy Pig are appreciated and welcomed as long as he confines his attacks to blacks only apparently.
I suspect Teddy Pig is the same person who thought using the n-word would send me screaming into the night over on Karen’s blog. It takes a helluva lot more than that to shut me down!
I’m fascinated that he attacked you, yet apologized to another poster and that’s supposed to be indicative of how egalitarian the folks over at DA are. Dude engaged in an unprovoked attack on someone who wasn’t even present, and was then told his posts were welcome. How bizarre.
As for that ‘Rooney Rule’ post, there was nothing I could say that wasn’t a multi-syllabic profanity so I didn’t post at all. The very concept is beyond insulting and in no way related to anything black authors have asked for or suggested.
I’ve been discussing race on the internet for a long time. I learned through trial and error that trying to have a conversation on this topic with many whites is simply not possible. I don’t know if they’re eaten up with guilt or simply don’t give a damn, but you can always guarantee they’ll say something stupid and clueless. The shit just gets old. I think a lot of black people feel this way, and simply confine any conversations they have with white people to general topics.
I agree, Roz.
The elephant that we are demanded to ignore is racism, plain and simple. Since it’s sitting and shitting on our asses, ignoring it is a difficult challenge indeed.
At DearAuthor.com the Elephant’s trumpet is very loud.
PS. Isn’t Teddy Pig cute assuming we blacks are too stupid to know how to make a sig or link to Amazon? If he’s for real, maybe he’s a skinhead or something.
Monica, I just wanted to let you know that occasionally people do learn. Because of one of your long debates (probably on SBTB or AAR) I went to the bookstore and picked up one of your anthologies and a Beverly Jenkins historical. I liked some parts and authors better than others, as I do with non-AA authors. But I plan to keep buying them.
I am so sick of the excuse that people are bothered by the ethnicity or the slang. This from the same individuals who go crazy over JR Ward. I haven’t been able to get past the first chapter of any of the books (for me, the BDB resemble white suburban wannabes more than Big Sexy Alpha Males), but I don’t go around complaining that it’s Ward’s fault that I don’t.
And what’s with being able to swallow entire books of bad Scottish brogue, but a few urban slang or ethnic references in an AA book put people off?
As you can probably tell from my first name, I’m Asian. None of the comments you’ve made about Asians’ experiences v. blacks have either offended me or sounded inaccurate. Granted, things are different in California now than when I went to school (it’s less likely for the bigger numbers we have now to be absorbed into the schools as white, esp. in the UC system). But you are absolutely right that Asians were granted honorary white status unless they openly rejected it. Blacks didn’t have that option (I went to schools under deseg orders).
Sorry to have hijacked your blog comments, but I wanted to let you know that there are lurkers out here who agree. I’m just too old to have these fights with people like Teddy Pig anymore (he is *so* aptly captured by the back half of his pseudonym).
Thanks, Sunita. I appreciate your comments.
As far as what I said about Asians on dearauthors, I was commenting to Genitha Low’s comment, who compared her experience as an Asian author to what black authors have to deal with. How my comments could be twisted and taken as offensive to Asians was beyond me, but I think I should have kept my personal experiences out of it, anyhow.
Your point about JR Ward is fascinating. I didn’t think about that. They are urban style thugged out and hip-hop, but she doesn’t have any black vamp heroes, does she? I wish somebody would ask her why (sales, maybe?). Nope, I wouldn’t touch the question
Yanno, Monica. I’m actually an Amazon associate and I think most of us are. Dumbass motherfucker.
I realize my post was ambiguous on at least one issue: I liked your short story a lot! I really like your voice. I don’t read paranormal romance much (I keep my SF/F and romance separate), but I’m definitely picking up your other books. And I did see your 3-in-1 volume (Perfect Passion?) on a BIG FRONT TABLE at the very white-bread Borders in Brentwood, MO, last month. I poked my husband and squealed, and he thought I’d lost my mind (again).
As for JR Ward, I believe that she has stated that the BDB aren’t of a particular race. But the fans all assume they’re white. Or “beyond” race, whatever that means. I find it absolutely mind-boggling that so many people can read Ward, enjoy or overlook the slang and the brand excess, not be bothered by the urban-street-cred-meets-valley-girl dialogue, and NEVER get where the context is appropriated from. Or if they get it, they don’t lend their acceptance to other writers who might write authentically about that context.
Monica, I’m thinking that Jane actually e-mailed him and told him that if he didn’t stop being so offensive, she’d ban him. Yes, she said that she didn’t want him to stop posting, and that he contributed to the discussion, but so what? Sometimes he does have valid points to make.
You are far too quick to assume that just because Jane told him that he was welcomed there, meant that she was condoning what he was doing. She handled the situation well enough that he stopped being as offensive.
The reason people get so annoyed at you, is because you make gross genralisations that you wouldn’t allow other people to get away with.
Dear Author is not the enemy here, but if you persist on second guessing their actions, you’ll probably be adding them to your personal never-ending list of people who think you’re a pain in the arse, and thus will refuse to listen to you, when you converse, even if you have something valid to say.
You get touchy about ‘perceived’ ill-wrongs, the same way that white people get touchy about race. Yes, you do.
A blogger told me the other day that I should be doing something about Roz accusing white people of racism, and I sat there and defended her right to her opinion, knowing full well I generally don’t agree with most of what she has to say.
They, like you, about Jane, probably thought I was agreeing with Roz’s views, which couldn’t be farther from the truth, but I still defended her right to have her say.
Even ignorant twats like Teddy Pig, has that same right, and alienating even more readers because of it, is pretty self-defeating Monica.
don’t get me started on J.R. Ward!! I got the first book when it came out based on PBW’s hype months before the release and threw it across the room the second I noticed the soi-doisant slang. I have no problem with her success–power to ya–but her pat answers about using the slang, and bling, whatnot seems so false, and the fact that fans gobble it up while accusing “black” fiction of being “ghetto” frustrates me to no end. As someone said on AAR, it’s a bit akin to Elvis obtaining international fame singing songs taken from much less successful black acts.
But that’s just it Karen, I didn’t accuse white people of racism. I stated that we live in a country that was founded for the benefit of white people and that power structure remains firmly in place. Therefore institutionalized racism is the sole province of white people. Apparently some folks prefer the more generic term ‘racism’ so they can immediately point fingers and cry ‘reverse racism’ and ‘black people do it too’ at the least slight. The fact is that book segregation is a manifestation of the white supremacist power structure in this country, period. I’m still waiting for them to refute that fact, with something other than some silly bitch shit. I didn’t attack anyone, nor did I call anyone racist. I’m not responsible for paranoid delusions informed by white guilt/ignorance/stupidity/disdain/orwhateverthefuckelse. And I resent like hell being accused of something I didn’t do.
Teddy Pig did in fact begin an unprovoked attack against Monica. And continued to do so even when others protested.
Saying that someone has a right to their opinion, especially when you made it clear that you neither like me, nor agree with me is a far cry from saying someone’s posts are ‘valid.’ Nothing that ignorant motherfucker said was valid. He/she/it was talking out of both sides of his ass. He’s a hateful, mean-spirited troll that somehow manages to show up to attack Monica any time this topic is raised. Yet his posts are ‘valid?’ In whose universe? Maybe the same one that accusing black writers of wanting a ‘Rooney rule.’
Let’s be honest, Roslyn. What you typed is: In this country, racism white supremacy and white skin privilege are exclusively white issues. Everyone can be prejudiced, biased and any number of adjectives, but only whites can be racist. Racism requires a power structure that no other group in this country has.
You didn’t specify institutionalized racism in that statement. With a word as emotionally charged as racism, it’s no wonder people got upset and read it as you using it in a broad-brush way, regardless of how you intended it.
Does it suck that you have to be especially careful to qualify what you say in a topic where people leap to offense on all sides of the argument? Of course it does, but if you don’t want people to react with their feelings first and their brains after the fact, it has to be done.
I’ve seen insults and assumptions from all sides of this discussion, and I haven’t been participating nearly as long as Monica. That seems to be the nature of the beast, unpleasant and irritating and enfuriating as it is.
Sara, I know what I said. Whites are the only ones who can be racist. Whites are the only ones who are part and party to a power structure that was developed for their benefit, therefore racism is something they created for the same. I very specifically said, racism, white supremacy and white skin privilege in my post to put it in a context of power structure. I even went further to say that this isn’t about individuals. Its about the power structure in a white supremacist country. White supremacy is the philosophy, racism and white skin privilege are the means by which that philosophy is perpetuated. I think a lot of people would benefit from reading about white skin privilege, white supremacy and racism before participating in such a discussion. Hopefully that would cut down on these absurd knee-jerk reactions to accusations that weren’t made, nor implied.
Jane was concerned with the rudeness to white commenter Robin and she handled that well. That is what stopped. Insults to blacks didn’t.
I dunno, Karen. From my end it seems as as far as some spaces in the romance community, anybody can direct any outrageous comment they want as long as it is directed to a black person and then at most they’ll get is a wink and a tap on the wrist.
It’s not just me, Karen, other blacks are paying attention to the insults and abuse.
And like them, I’m thinking there’s absolutely no point in dialogs with (chose the euphemism of your choice) folk.
But Roslyn, his overall point, was that most authors had the same shelving problems, my point was that those problems were mislabelling, period, and nothing to do with, colour, but it doesn’t make it less true, that other non-blacks have problems with bookstores, putting them in sections where they don’t feel their books belong.
You saying that his views don’t hold up, is only the same as him denying the shelving-by-colour issue.
With regards to what Sara said, you start using words like white supremacy, you’re rarely ever going to get a fair crack at the whip.
People, will feel offended, just like you would, if they started bandying the ‘N’ word around. It’s a word that feels accusatory when used by black people, directed at whites.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t use it, but you shouldn’t be surprised if people go on the defensive, and accuse you of calling them racist.
Sara and Roz
The issue is that we define racism differently than many whites define it.
1) Whites seem to have to take the word to KKK level. If they don’t go around saying and feeling they hate all black people and are superior, they don’t see themselves as racist. I might see them as racist merely because they treat me differently from a white person in the same situation.
2) Nobody is saying blacks can’t discriminate, be prejudiced, bigoted or assholes to people of other races. That isn’t what Roz meeans and that is what she said several times, but no one was listening.
But the word racism is the province of the ruling class, the majority, the ones with the power. Racism, like sexism, is a cultural, societal word. Whites don’t have to concern themselves with racism. But if they were to move into an all- black neighborhood, they might well have to concern themselves with prejudice, race hatred and bigotry.
Same: Men don’t have to concern themselves with sexism, but a male nurse working with all women and a female boss might be discriminated against by women. Women are as capable of being assholes, but in this culture and society, it’s men who practice sexism.
Karen and Sara,
if we have to be so extremely careful of white racial feelings, why is it so VERY unreasonable to expect that others be careful of our racial feelings too?
I’m seeing dozens of insensitive, and to me, racist, posts at dearauthors with no sensitivity being considered at all.
Karen, you just blasted me because I drew attention to this fact, might upset white people and make enemies.
You got on TP, but no blast to the moderators at DearAuthors and the many offensive posters.
So why the constant insistence that I and Roz be so very sensitive?
Because we’re black, right?
Jane was concerned with the rudeness to white commenter Robin and she handled that well. That is what stopped. Insults to blacks didn’t.
Did he insult black people? Now you see, that’s not what I got outta that whole conversation. He was being dismissive re the shelving problem, and hateful towards you, but I didn’t get the feeling that he was attacking blacks in general.
He was a wanker who needed a good slap, but where you saw hatred against blacks, I saw an individual who was just being a c*nt. The world is full of people like him.
Nonblacks aren’t having problems with bookstores because of their race–what TP said had nothing at all to do with the situation facing black authors. It only had to do with him making his repeated points that black authors either are using the race card, whining about nothing, or are expecting entitled treatment over authors of other races.
Basically, an insult to black authors as were most of Jan’s comments. And many others.
But no worries about insulting our reality, right?
Um Karen, maybe you should poll some black authors. I bet money they feel they were being insulted, not only by TP’s dismissive posts to our concerns, but by the others too.
What if the erotica authors complained about how the romance community treated them and commenters posted on how they were wrong, expecting entitlements, and basically needed to shut up.
If you replace the black with erotica or e-book, maybe you could get it then.
Monica,
As we agreed on Kate’s blog, it seems that again it’s a matter of perspective and life experience. If people in a dialogue are not using the same definition for the same word, then yeah, there are going to be misunderstandings and arguments. So, if the dialogues are going to continue, then -everyone- needs to be clear right from the get go what they’re talking about.
Which means that, yeah, whites have to say ‘when I say racism, I mean that someone thinks X race is inferior’ and blacks have to say ‘when I say racism, I mean discrimination by people of the majority race’ or whatever that word means to the person using it. Otherwise, we’re talking about apples and oranges and people are going to get pissed.
And I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all to expect that people are careful of feelings across the board. However, again, people need to know they’re talking about two different levels of a thing, or feelings are going to get stomped on unintentionally.
I’m seeing dozens of insensitive, and to me, racist, posts at dearauthors with no sensitivity being considered at all.
OK, you give me a dozen racist post by 12 different people on that Dear Author thread. I mean it. Do it.
The problem is, you want white people to be sensitive, but how many of your posts are sensitive to them? You can’t have it both ways.
Karen, you just blasted me because I drew attention to this fact, might upset white people and make enemies.
But Monica, you basically accused the girls at DA of condoning racist behaviour. You do that accusing thing all the time, and refuse to take any responsibility for the insensitive things you say. Not on this occasion, I grant you, but there are examples across the blogs, as you well know.
You hate people making assumptions about you, but that is the one thing that you do with just about everybody.
Karen he made the shelving issue point in order to be dismissive of the issue as it pertains to blacks. We weren’t having a conversation about authors having shelving issues. We were having a conversation about the book segregation based on the author’s race, not the genre that writer had previously written in. I don’t know how many conversations you’ve had about race, but its a common strategy used to ‘normalize’ the discriminatory behavior. ‘Oh, it happens to everybody, you’re just being a whiny bitch. Be a ‘team player’ and shut the hell up.’
That’s not a ‘valid’ point, that’s white supremacist apologia. A device employed with frightening frequency.
I’m trying, really, really trying to understand how the phrase ‘white supremacy’ has been turned into a racial epithet. No one can deny that this country was founded on the ideals of white supremacy and that those ideals continue to be the basis of the power structure of this country. Instead they choose to get insulted and seek to muzzle me by using the n-word. Sorry, it takes a helluva lot more than that to shut me up.
If people get offended by the word white supremacy then, as I’ve said they really seriously need to both check and educate themselves. We have states in this country that have the principles of white supremacy written in their Constitution to this day. Other institutions practice its principles covertly. But overriding it all is the fact that it exists, and its the exclusive province of whites.
It only had to do with him making his repeated points that black authors either are using the race card, whining about nothing, or are expecting entitled treatment over authors of other races.
To which I firmy disagreed with his stupid points, but you just painted a dozen other people on that blog, with the same brush as you used for him. How’s that fair? He was one of maybe two people, who felt that way.
You have just done, exactly what he did. Tarred a whole load of people with the same brush.
The problem is, you want white people to be sensitive, but how many of your posts are sensitive to them? You can’t have it both ways.
Karen I didn’t use the R-word or call somebody a muthafuckin’ racist skank bitch. I was being quite sensitive.
Really sensitive.
But Monica, you basically accused the girls at DA of condoning racist behaviour. You do that accusing thing all the time, and refuse to take any responsibility for the insensitive things you say. Not on this occasion, I grant you, but there are examples across the blogs, as you well know.
Yep, I did accuse them of it and I stand by it. If more black authors would speak up (yes, I’m talking about y’all), hella more accusing would be done and righteously so.
Refuse to take responsibility? I’ll take responsibility. Now you quote me some instances.
All I hear is whining I said such and such was racist or called or more frequently implied, so and so is racist. Generally, if I bother to say it out loud, it’s just so damn true, there’s nothing else to be said. Apologizing would be lying. They never want to know what I based my conclusions on or why I took offense. Never. If they were blatant enough that I actually made an accusation, reasonable discussion is out of question for their racist ass. They just want to scream as loud and publicly as possible I called them racist to shut me up and call out the lynchers.
You have just done, exactly what he did. Tarred a whole load of people with the same brush.
Nope, I’m talking about offensive comments in writing, black and white, that are dismissive about the issues and concerns facing black authors. (Likelihoods and rationalization we’re just using the race card, being entitled and whining about nothing).
Okay, if I get examples, you do too. Yes, I felt more than two or three people were offensive on that post. I have to go out to eat, but I can get you examples later. You know this will cause a shitstorm because we Negroes are not allowed to be racially offended, don’t you?
Roz, want to help in the meantime? How about you other sista lurkers? You can post anon.
And dammit, why don’t you comment what you really think about bullshit like that Rooney post? See, by silence, you have them thinking that insulting us black people is fine, just fine.
I’m trying, really, really trying to understand how the phrase ‘white supremacy’ has been turned into a racial epithet. No one can deny that this country was founded on the ideals of white supremacy and that those ideals continue to be the basis of the power structure of this country.
Roslyn, as a black person, we’re quite comfortable using words like white supremacy, because, we can, but as a white person, that word has all kinds of negative connotations, that makes them uncomfortable.
I’m not saying you have to pussy foot around these people and their sensibilities, but then be prepared for them to level the accusation of playing the race card, back at you, without minding your sensibilities.
Somebody accusing you of playing the race card is your hot button, and you talking about white supremacists is probably going to be their hot button.
Everybody’s got something that makes them crazy.
Karen, I’ve been around long enough to know that there are people who’ll have an adverse reaction to the words ‘chocolate pudding.’ I certainly understand why white people have beef with the phrase white supremacy. They are both the perpetrators and beneficiaries of it. That’s not a problem for them. The problem comes if somebody dares mention that fact.
No, that’s not my question. I want to know when ‘white supremacy’ became a racial epithet equal to the n-word. Its incredibly ironic that they don’t even see that making such a statement is in itself an imposition of white supremacy.
I think most blacks realized a long time ago that discussing these issues with most whites is a waste of time. The denial, dismissiveness and other varied dumbass tricks are simply not worth it, especially when very little will change.
I only hope, that having seen some of these responses you now have a greater understanding as to why so many people failed to respond to your poll. Most of us are black women in our 30s and 40s, and frankly we’ve heard this shit until we simply don’t want to hear it anymore.
Sara,
Basically I agree with what you last said.
But again, if we have to be so damn careful, nonblacks should also stop and think and not be able to insult us and belittle what affects us so freely and without consequence.
I think most blacks realized a long time ago that discussing these issues with most whites is a waste of time. The denial, dismissiveness and other varied dumbass tricks are simply not worth it, especially when very little will change-Roz
Exactly Roz, we step out and just get called names, insulted and shit on while they fume about how racist we are if we respond at all.
I see clearly why SO MANY black authors have personally told me they aren’t going to deal with the shit.
Nope, I’m talking about offensive comments in writing, black and white, that are dismissive about the issues and concerns facing black authors.
There were exactly three people on that thread that I mostly disagreed with, no more than that. Two of those people had basically been reasonable, if a little disingenuous, but them being dismissive about issues facing black authors doesn’t even make them rude, let alone racists. It just means that they don’t really care, because it doesn’t affect them personally. You know how that works right?
How much do you care about issues that predominantly affect white people? When was the last time you blogged about a white person being unfairly treated? You know it happens, regardless of the fact that they are white, but does it even register with you?
If the answer is no, then why are you expecting these people to instantly care deeply about the things that affect black authors? A, they aren’t authors, and B. they aren’t black.
The more we talk, the more aware people will be of the issues, hopefully, the more they will care. But if we’re constantly making them feel guilty for being born privileged, by virtue of being white, then I fail to see how anything can be resolved, anytime soon.
I don’t know about you, but this whole thing isn’t about making people feel guilty, it’s about educating people, who probably didn’t realise that the problem existed in the first place.
Roz,
Honestly, it’s not the white supremacy that got people up in arms, I don’t think. It’s the term racism and saying that only whites can be racist. Like Monica pointed out, we’re using different definitions and not changing the word we use, thus, people react differently to it.
If you call a white person racist, they’re not going to think “beneficiary of the power structure”, they’re going to think you’re saying that they think blacks are less/bad/inferior. They’re going to see it as an accusation that they’re bad people and they’re going to react accordingly.
That’s why it’s the equivalent of the n-word.
Monica, I’m still agreeing with you, but until we make sure we’re all using the same definitions before we start getting pissed at each other, I don’t know how that’s going to happen.
The whole thing is about awareness, and awareness takes discussion.
And whites need to be aware of their privilege. This doesn’t mean they need to feel guilty. I don’t feel guilty that I live in a first world country with a higher socio-economic status than some. Rather I take my privilege into account when I consider the plight of some Mexican immigrants, for instance. They deserve a crack at the American dream too.
Whites need to be able to be aware of race and racism without becoming defensive, feeling guilty or all that crap. It is what it is and by being aware, one can try to stop being a part of the problem.
I care very much about white issues quite a bit because what affects any of them generally affects me. I live in American and am a mainstream, basically middle class American. Shit, even sunblock affects me. My daughter got the hell sunburned out of her and had freckles all summer. My nose peeled too. I cannot believe the amount of sunblock I bought.
You have a point about the author-thing though.
It’s not about feeling guilty, but if blacks have to tiptoe around whites, I don’t think it’s much for whites to be called to account when they belittle us or our issues.
ADDED: Karen asked, When was the last time you blogged about a white person being unfairly treated?
I blogged about gays and that awful fool Phelps several times when I lived in Topeka, and the erotica author thing despite such loud and admirable bitching when the heifers are such lucky bitches already. Are those poor Iraqis considered white?
I think most blacks realized a long time ago that discussing these issues with most whites is a waste of time. The denial, dismissiveness and other varied dumbass tricks are simply not worth it, especially when very little will change.
How is that not a dismissive comment?
Why concentrate on the three stupid people on that thread? Why not concentrate on some of the other positive, and searching comments that were made?
You know why you don’t look at the positives?
Because it’s far easier to point the finger at the naysayers, than to embrace the people who are honestly trying to understand the issue.
Common definitions might be a start, Sara.
But I’m still trying to figure out how to call out the (way more than three) funky posters at dearauthor without identifying them specifically. It’s a conundrum.
But hey, that’s an idea, Karen. There were as many cool posters as funky ones. What if I identify the thoughtful, interesting, positive ones?
Personally I care about issues that affect mankind, period. But hey, I’m a humanist, what can I say? I certainly have beef when anybody is treated unfairly. However, I don’t think talking about white supremacy is being unfair. White supremacy is the basic philosophy behind racism. We can’t have any kind of reasonable discussion of racism without talking about what motivates it. Do you really believe publishers would ever have made the statement ‘blacks don’t read’ if they didn’t have a white supremacist mindset?
As for educating people, what in the name of Pete do you think I’m trying to do? (I’m pretty sure I’m going to wish I’d used all this energy on my current WIP.) Maybe its the therapist in me, but I believe that you have to understand something in its entirety before you can address it. Otherwise you have ignorant ass people accusing you of guilt-tripping, etc… Whites need to understand the way white supremacy, racism and white skin privilege intersect to disenfranchise others.
Fifty years ago we thought things would be alright if we just desegregated. We now know that it was just a Bandaid approach, and people’s hearts and minds were not changed. That’s why we’re still dealing with these issues in 2007. We made an accomodation to white supremacy as opposed to eradicating it. Simply desegregating the bookshelves isn’t enough. History has shown us that racism doesn’t go away just because desegregation occurs. We’re dealing with a basic mindset that black is inferior to white and until we address that we’re just whistling in the wind.
Sara, I asked if racism was the word that everyone got upset with and was told no, it was the phrase ‘white supremacy.’ Indeed, that’s the phrase ‘anonymous’ compared to the n-word, not racism.
“If you call a white person racist, they’re not going to think “beneficiary of the power structure”, they’re going to think you’re saying that they think blacks are less/bad/inferior. They’re going to see it as an accusation that they’re bad people and they’re going to react accordingly.”
But again, I didn’t call any white people a racist. I did say that whites benefit from a white supremacist power structure. My husband benefits from a white supremacist power structure, but he’s not a racist. IMO, you’re only a racist if you think you’re entitled to the benefit.
“How is that not a dismissive comment?”
It WAS a dismissive comment and I intended it to be so. And, please for the love of Pete stop saying it was only three people. Every time we have this discussion we have throngs of people employing white supremacist apologia to the utmost. And a helluva lot of it was going on in that thread
However, I don’t think talking about white supremacy is being unfair. White supremacy is the basic philosophy behind racism.
That maybe so, but the whites that you level those terms at, are still going to feel as if you’re calling them racist. It doesn’t matter what your justifications are, human nature being such as it is.
I’m going to bed now, it’s late over here.
Why don’t you go read and respond to Gwyneth Bolton’s comments. She’s only got two comments so far, whilst we bicker back and forth on here amongst ourselves.
Even though we ultimately want the same thing.
This shit would be easier on IM.
Night.
Roz,
You didn’t single any individuals out and call them racist, no. But by saying that whites benefit from a white supremacist power structure, without qualifying the belief that IMO, you’re only a racist if you think you’re entitled to the benefit, people can infer that you think they’re racist.
I believe when you say that isn’t what you meant, but with such a charged word, can you understand why they would see it that way?
Your wish is my command, Karen.
Sara, how in the hell would I know whether they’re racist or not? And how can I be held responsible for their projections? Benefitting from something doesn’t necessarily make you a practitioner of it.
Monica,
In the interest of full disclosure, I wasn’t “supposedly defending” you, I DID defend you — straight out. I did so not agreeing with a lot of what you say, either, or your approach at times. Because you didn’t and don’t deserve to be scapegoated. And also for the record, I wasn’t “supporting” Mr. Teddy Pig, I was trying to draw attention to a point he was making that I thought was valid and that was being ignored — that individuals DO break through the system and that this is something important to remember. Because otherwise there will only be negative hand-wringing and defeatist surrenders.
As for your views on the conversation at DA, I truly wonder sometimes if there is *anything* that would please you or of which you would fully approve. Because the thing about blogs (and about democracy in general) is, of course, that open dialogue and discourse are out of any one person’s control, and inevitably *someone* will be horrified and offended by what is said. That you are sick of feeling you have to be careful around us poor ignorant white folks is mirrored in the way many white folks feel they must be ever so careful around you, too. Because this discussion IS uncomfortable, and it IS new for many readers, and it IS in a forum where civility is always just one tenuous post from exiting the building in a huff and a holler.
It’s not going to be ideal, and it’s probably not going to proceed in the way you think it should. But if it’s getting people to *think* about a whole segment of Romance they either ignored or had no idea about, then isn’t that precisely what will ultimately lead to the “there” there? Isn’t one of the “ways there” for white, Asian, blue, and Wiccan readers start pulling AA Romances off the shelves and taking them home and reading them — and basically mainstreaming them through increased sales numbers and diverse readership? I think what’s going on at DA is opening the door to that kind of thing, and clearly it’s not something the Ja(y)nes had any external mandate imposing on them to open up conversation around these issues.
Roz, you can’t know. But as we’ve already discussed, very charged topic + people feeling defensive on all sides = need for kid gloves.
You’re seeing people insult you without knowing what their motivations or intents are when they type something. They’re seeing you insult them without knowing your motivations or intents.
It works both ways.
Okay, I’ve posted all the commendable comments on DearAuthor’s Racism in Publishing post on my forum. Feel free to browse the sensibility.
Robin.
I understand what you said, at least I think I did. I noted your comment here and if I was mistaken you can correct me there.
As far as your defense of Teddy Pig , I think it was mistaken and not something you would have done if you were commenting or living while black. It’s a given some black individuals do make it, Walter Mosley, Terry McMillan are just a couple of examples. But the Pig was only making his point to denigrate blacks, not to show us possibilities. I don’t think this is a supposition because every point he made got around to putting blacks or our issues down.
The point is awareness, and that is being done for a percentage. The other (significant) percentage can’t be swayed toward black issues or books anyway because of their deep-seated beliefs. This segment exists and this is the segment screaming there is no such thing as racism or somebody personally attacked them for bringing up the topic, no matter how global.
I see this changing and becoming less acceptable in increments already. The reason? Open discussion of the very things some hate to discuss.
I agree, me taking on the topic is going to make many mad, because I’m nothing but a nigger to them, but it is also going to get dialogs started on the issue and that is the point.
When the many reasonable and thoughtful nonblack romance readers and authors call the prejudiced ones out for their wrong statements and beliefs is when the difference is made.
Isn’t that worth upsetting a few people?
As far as your defense of Teddy Pig , I think it was mistaken and not something you would have done if you were commenting or living while black.
It’s certainly not something YOU would do as a black person, and who knows what I would do, since my life experiences would be my own, just as they are now. All I know is that one of my very best friends is AA AND a long, long time Romance reader (and the one who introduced me to Romance) and she is not at all in line with your views, either. And she is an extremely active scholar and advocate regarding issues of race and racial equality, including holding a position as head of African American Studies at a university where the field is still fighting for respect — and NO ONE is fighting harder than she is. So who’s right between you and my friend? IMO it would be bad to make that choice, because both of you have valid points to make, even when you are in conflict. And that’s the point *I* was trying to make — that at some level we have to make room for the way different individual experiences affects our views and our destinies, partially independent of all those “isms.” That’s why I hate those “you wouldn’t say that if . . . ” I don’t necessarily think that if you were white you would think like I do, and I certainly don’t feel the need to explain all my life circumstances to you as a way to justify my own beliefs.
Also, if I disregarded every opinion that was offered by someone I thought was offensive based on Internet incidents, I’d be seriously limited as to those opinions I paid any attention to.
I’ve been following the discussions about race rather closely over the last few months. And will admit I initially was offended by Rosyln’s comments on Karen’s blog. I finally understand her point.
I think most white people are very hyper-sensitive to words like “racism white supremacy” and “white skin privilege” and “only whites can be racist”. Some may see it as tar and feathering all whites as evil. I understand that’s not the point, that on an individual level unless you know someone personally there’s no way to truly know whether or not someone is a racist. But it does push emotional buttons especially in people who try to live by a moral code that abhors racism, prejudice, bigotry…
Robin, that’s why I said “I think.” We’re not monolithic.
My honest view is not one black person I know or have ever known personally would have defended Teddy Pig.
But for instance, noted blogger LaShawn Barber is black and often (pretty much always) writes negative commentary toward blacks, conservative style. She has many white conservative supporters and visitors to her blog. (She is their official black friend!) She also gets much black criticism, but she doesn’t care. She honestly thinks blacks are inferior to whites and any victimization or situation is the fault of our own subhuman natures. She actually makes a living off her extremely popular viewpoint and gets TV time, etc. She used to consult on how to make money with one’s blog. She would have been one of Teddy Pig’s fans for sure.
I used to think La Shawn was mentally ill, but now I think she’s just really, really rightwing, such as Anne Coulter. Most rightwing commentators are very negative and offensive to blacks also, thus the main reason for the dearth of black rightwingers. Poor La Shawn would probably sell her soul to the devil, Christian sentiments or not, if he’d turn her white.
I digress. Oh my point is that blacks are different, but anybody supporting extreme views such as Teddy Pig’s POV are rare. It would be like a white person supporting the black Muslim organization in the US which implies whites are inherently evil. I’d think a white person supporting that POV would be strange. The problem of that org is they have some really positive conservative views, such as black self-sufficiency (refusing gov’t handouts, etc.) but it’s offset by their awful prejudices against whites and Jews. I see them as sort of the same as the extreme rightwingers.
I digress again. I need more coffee.
Tara, I agree that it’s impossible for one person to see in another’s heart and truly know if they are racist or not.
But I go by a person’s words and actions. The problem of that is words and actions can also be misleading, I guess. They can have some other intent or motivation or the person could have been unthinking or change their mind on reflection.
Considering this, I come to the conclusion it’s best to say someone’s words or actions could be taken as racist, but not labeling them as racist. Do I make sense?
I can and do judge institutional racism though. It’s easy for people not suffering under institutional racism to be unaware of it. I can say the romance community is essentially racist (it really does seem to be), but that doesn’t mean I’m saying individual white readers or authors are racist because there’s no way I could know.
I can see how my saying this could be an instant emotional trigger for a racially defensive person. They read I said the romance community is racist and as a member of that community, they take it personally. But they shouldn’t react just to the word racist if they know they personally aren’t or don’t want to be. They have to consider the possibility that instiutions can be racist against blacks and if they aren’t black, they’d be unaware.
Maybe they should examine the community and see what they can do to change it. I see a lot doing that now they are becoming aware. An example is how black books are treated differently by many reviewers. This is a romance community thing. Once aware of the situation, I see reviewers making the effort to widen out.
I see a lot of talk about the Rita awards. Kayla in her post on Karen’s blog said there needed to be a black Rita category because blacks seldom win awards and it’s not right. There is usually grumbling among black authors at Rita time and some truly do resent the award. There does need to be something done. I view the Rita award as racist. I know nothing about the Rita organizers, judges or supporters. I seriously doubt if they are all racist, or even most of them. But as an institution, the Rita is certainly racist and needs to be examined. If I wrote a post on this, a lot of those Rita supporters would likely get pissed that I called them racist. I’m not. I’m calling them to become aware and examine what is going on vis a vis the Rita in relation to blacks. It’s something they normally don’t have to ever think about and probably don’t. That doesn’t make them racist, it just makes them unaware.
Where to start. I do think shelving is wrong. I do think that my previous opinion regarding AA books being primarily urban in nature was wrong. I do think that instituting some private Rooney Rule for myself would help me to address my own personal myopic and wrong view of African American literature. You can find that offensive or racist but I am not going to hide my feelings about it.
I do think every viewpoint is valid, even if it is racist because I believe you have to acknowledge an illness before recovery can begin. I also think that spirited debate is a way toward greater enlightenment.
Frankly, Monica, you are full of personal attacks and I didn’t delete the ones you made to people just as I didn’t delete the ones made toward you. I suppose I could have but I try to have a laissez faire attitude toward commenters so that people can feel free to express their opinion. I want to know what everyone’s opinions are, not just the ones that match mine.
You and every other black author can assume that we at DearAuthor hate blacks or are racist and so forth and there is little we can do to change that because I think that unless I quote your party line verbatim, whatever that may be, I will never be anything but a racist to you.
Hmmm. Did you read where I quoted you on the forum, the only person I quoted twice?
I never called DA racist, but agreed with Karen’s comment I accused you of condoning racism.
The fact that I go around calling individuals racist is a bald lie and I’m sick of hearing it. I’ve said romance was racist, I’ve said some institutions are racist. Racially defensive individuals take that as if I said they as individuals are racist, but that’s their problem. I’m simply sick of the lies.
I wrote that blacks avoid the site because you don’t tend to support us as much as you do nonblack authors. How is that anything other than the plain truth?
What personal attacks did I make on Dear Author? Quotes, please. I answered Sara and Gennitha, disagreeing, but not name-calling, in fact, being careful to use “I” words, statements and subjective personal experiences rather than making objective statements. In response I was mercilessly attacked and called names for commenting at all with no response from any moderator. You know what it felt and read like? “Niggers shut up.” You do notice that’s what we do on those racial posts about blacks, don’t you?
I only commented once on the recent post, answering a commenter that said something specifically about me that wasn’t true. The substance of my comment only had to do with how I promoted. I ignored all the other many comments that lied about me and attacked me.
I was attacked on your blog without even having posted anything at all. What was I attacked for? Being a Nigger and having the nerve to have EVER responded to racism, apparently in my life. Not keeping to my proper place, right?
Yet you moderated for another commenter who was attacked in a much less personal way and was actually commenting on the board.
In fact the time I remember I recently made a direct accusation against an individual was in response to her saying she would never read any black authors because she was mad at me talking about race in general. She acted her feelings about black authors out by never including any black authors in her popular romance blog. (notice the past tense)
This was not taken as outrageous racism on her part, but normal behavior toward black authors. WTF?
What was taken as outrageous was the fact I responded to her and said I thought she was racist (now I would say her actions were racist).
I still can’t think of any other word for treating all other black authors one way because one black author had the audacity to comment on institutional racism in the romance community publicly, such as black romance being routinely ignored at romance review sites.
Ignoring romances because they are by blacks are fine, but calling attention to the fact they are ignored is racist? WTF?
You can’t see what extreme bullshit this is?
What would you do, Jane? Honestly? Would you be like most and simply ignore the issue and refuse to communicate with folks you deem are disrespectful to you because of your race (God forbid I use the correct term, racist)?
DA is not racist and I never said so. I did say I found Jan’s comments offensive (and I’m certain I’m not the only black person to do so). I also criticized the content of one of your posts. But perhaps it’s not considered right for a black person to criticize anything that a white or nonblack person says about black people? Only nonblack people get to do that, right?
You let profound insults to me, blacks and our issues pass by, in my opinion because you’re unaware of how the statements sound and feel to blacks–but tend to respond quickly to serious insults to whites or nonblacks. Frankly, so does Karen and others.
I don’t need to label the act, I’m just bringing your attention to it. Why is that such a bad thing?
Oh, because a black person is doing it.
Grrrrrr. I’m the racist one for even noticing, right? Shit, it makes you feel nothing has changed much, as far as attitudes toward blacks, since 1897.
BTW, my party line always has been and continues to be:
You can search my blog and you won’t find differently. And if you find other posts and comments elsewhere, I’ve never stated that blacks be treated differently from other authors, other races are different from we are, or anything else other than we should be treated the same as anybody else and it’s wrong when we aren’t. I have copied essays here I wrote as far back as 1998 stating my party line.
So if you disagree with my party line, I do think there is a problem with race going on there, a fairly serious one.
Monica said:
My honest view is not one black person I know or have ever known personally would have defended Teddy Pig.
Karen Scott said:
Monica, I’m thinking that Jane actually e-mailed him and told him that if he didn’t stop being so offensive, she’d ban him. Yes, she said that she didn’t want him to stop posting, and that he contributed to the discussion, but so what? Sometimes he does have valid points to make.
So, because I’m white I’m not allowed to defend what I think is a valid point of his without being dragged into collusion with him because you find him so offensive? How is that any different than what he did to me, by trying to dismiss me by aligning me with someone he finds offensive? Both of you represent political minorities. If I call him a racist, does that mean I call you anti-gay? I couldn’t even begin to go down that road (or roads, as the case may be).
He had a valid point, IMO, and you have valid points. And if I can’t point that out, on EITHER side, without getting slammed by both of you, then how do you expect anyone to feel like they can participate in these types of discussions without getting creamed by someone? And isn’t that just welcoming for people who might otherwise be interested in these discussions — shy people — sane people, maybe — who don’t feel the need to subject themselves to allegations of racism, homophobia, or whatever.
Monica,
I can point out two places where you made dismissive and predjudiced statements against me in the Rooney discussion.
I read your post about being dark.
I know very well you aren’t black and American or you would have never written such offensive things.
You interpreted what I typed, which was that I’m darker than the rest of my family (a statement which is comparative in nature and a fact), as offensive and then turned it into me saying something that I didn’t, that being that I’m dark. Which would be silly, given the shade of my skin.
Which you also commented on: You can submit to the romance houses and leave race out and it will be assumed you’re not black if you’re light enough as your pic attests you’re are.
Now, we’ve already discussed how you view the fact that I claim all of my races, but I call those statements insulting.
Sara, I think you’re reading something that wasn’t there.
You CLEARLY stated you were darker than your family. I responded in a comment that was in no way an attack, “You say you’re dark. . .”
So you saying I insulted you profoundly by leaving off the er?
You stated there and other places that you don’t consider yourself black.
I felt and still feel if you did consider yourself black and American, you wouldn’t post such offensive things to me about blacks and about what I have to say–my point was black authors deserve the same treatment nonblack authors get.
(Posting offensive things to me is fine, right? I’m just a black person and thus shouldn’t respond).
Hell, that’s all I’m saying, all I ever said, and the fact I have to fight and struggle just to say it is so fucking telling.
Then you said nobody answered your questions about publishing.
You’d carefully stated you don’t consider yourself black and would never seek publication in the black romance area. I responded, trying to be fucking helpful:
What is this other than a fact? You clearly write you wanted and do leave race out. I responded you could because if you sent a pic you’re light enough (based on your website pic).
If you looked unmistakably black, you probably would have difficulty leaving race out in romance traditional publishing.
And that’s an insult?
I think many could tell you it’s a fact.
Sheesh.
Calling me names is an insult. The fact I called you dark when you yourself said you were darker … that’s not an insult, but the fact you can take it as such is a damned shame. Would calling you light when you said you were lighter than your family be an insult? I’m lighter than my father’s family. You can call me light if you want. I wouldn’t give a fuck. Lighter than what?
Same thing, Robin. I don’t see anybody I know or have never known who considers themselves black defending Teddy Pig’s comment or considering them valid. What that has to do with me calling or considering you racist, I don’t know.
Defend TP all you want, it’s your prerogative. But saying that I called you racist because you’re doing so is a damned lie and apologia as Roz would put it.
What I said, for the third time, is that I don’t know any black people who would do so (and made the point that they may exist, I just don’t know them personally).
I responded to Karen (and so did Roz) that TP had no valid points to make to most black people and all his points were directed in downgrading blacks. I’m sure some rightwing conservatives might think he and Jan had valid points. Most blacks (note I’m not saying all), not so much.
How is that fucking racist? My point is, always has been, that blacks are no different from whites and shouldn’t be treated differently. I really want to know how my points are fucking racist when implying blacks who state they want to be treated equally are whiners, playing the race card and full of shit, isn’t?
Sheesh.
The fact that I go around calling individuals racist is a bald lie and I’m sick of hearing it. I’ve said romance was racist, I’ve said some institutions are racist. Racially defensive individuals take that as if I said they as individuals are racist, but that’s their problem.
But here’s the thing, Monica. It’s not just “racially defensive” people who are uncomfortable with that characterization. Or maybe I should say that we’re all — you included — racially defensive to some degree, because you feel like you’re being misrepresented in the same way that others who don’t agree with your characterization feel that they are. Like, for example, saying the RITAs are racist. Now there’s a huge discussion on the SB’s over the RITAs right now, and from what I can tell, erotica, gay/lesbian, YA, and non-white Romance are all marginalized (there are probably categories I’m leaving out). A couple of years ago the RWA tried to limit the genre to one man, one woman. That must be some kind of ist, right? I think we can all agree that the Romance community doesn’t seem to welcome any kind of meaningful diversity. Is it racist? You present that as a conclusion, where I see that as the beginning of an analysis that needs to be made. I don’t get offended when you say that, but I think as a foregone conclusion such a statement tends to shut down discussion. And because so much of what you have to offer to that discussion is *important*, I kind of wish you’d back off from those statements *as foregone conclusions*.
As for Jane’s Rooney rule, frankly I think she’s extremely brave to say that she has had a narrow view of Romance in the way she did, especially in the current net environment, in the same way I think you’re brave to say a lot of what you say. Jane and I probably disagree on as many things as we agree, but I think she’s shown a lot of integrity in bringing up these racial issues on her blog. And as an uncompromising supporter of free speech, I know how hard it is to let offensive comments remain public, when you know you’re going to get shit for it from all sides. It’s so much easier to monitor and censor and judge, because you get less shit. But you also get less democracy.
Monica, I have absolutely no idea where you’re coming from anymore, but I give up. I get the feeling you want this to be war, so have at it.
Saying blacks are the same as any other race and shouldn’t be treated differently is a war to you, Robin?
Fine.
I’m thinking you’re not alone.
No, I’m saying you took offense at me making a comparative statement as if that statement somehow made a value judgement on you or blacks in general.
This is your imagination. I took offense at your saying I can’t write romance as you do, because I can’t.–Monica
And then you decided that because of a comparative statement, you could make an assumption about me.
I’ll note that I have never claimed not to be black. I claim to not *only* be black. There’s a difference, regardless of whether you see it.
Your prerogative. You can be any damned thing you want to be. I don’t care; it’s not my business. I only respond when you chastise me for having to be a black romance author because you feel you don’t have to be. I don’t see that I have a choice, whether I’m not only black or not. –Monica
It’s okay. I’m done this time around. I’m sure that’s a relief to us both.
I need to be done too.
I stated that I was out of the romance community, because it upsets the hell out of me that I have to fucking fight and struggle to speak out about the principle that it’s WRONG to treat black authors differently from authors of other races and needs to stop.
Karen said all I’m making is enemies because of openly stating my strong beliefs. I think she’s right. So many are invested in the status quo that treats blacks differently, that challenging it is attacking them personally.
Drive on, romance community. Don’t worry. We’ll stay quietly on our end of the bus. Standing up and making our viewpoints known about our seating is so extremely racist, not to mention a personal attack, right?
Sorry to jump in randomly here, but I just wanted to make a few comments too. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to read all of the comments over at Dear Author because of essay season at school right now, but I think getting the entire romance community all riled over this issue is a really positive thing. It’s probably very stressful and frustrating on both sides (especially for you, Monica, because you’re one of the few AA romance authors to break the silence, and to keep breaking it).
But those white readers and authors who do want to honestly listen and understand the issues, and not allow themselves to be ‘deafened by defensiveness’ as I like to call it, are helping break new ground, too, I think.
And as a white romance reader, I have issues with this debate as well. I love reading about romance, but in many ways, I know the romance genre is so narrow and conservative. I recognize the injustices and I want to help fight for equality, not just for marginalized writers and readers, but because experiencing new voices would be so interesting for me as a reader too. But at the same time, I don’t know exactly where I should stand in this battle, and I am afraid that the language and tone I use might be construed as offensive or racist–and I think that’s why a lot of white romance readers/writers either back out or get defensive. I don’t want to do either, but I also don’t want to come off as being patronizing or condescending in trying to support you and other AA authors. Do I sound like I’m paying you lip-service, am I rattling off platitudes left and right?
I think the lines of communication on both sides need to be initiated with tolerance and patience in mind. But sometimes to get the point across–especially in shaking up such insubstantial institutions as socially accepted ideologies, it’s necessary to call people on their bullshit.
And on a sidenote: I’m a big fan of both J. R. Ward and Gennita Low, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for readers to question some of their choices. It’s understandable that they may not want to shake things up too quickly because they don’t have the power of a big name like Nora Roberts to fall back on, but they’re both breaking new ground, and I hope they both continue to poke holes in the accepted status quo.
J. R. Ward: I love the unique street talk you’ve introduced in your books, but I do find it disturbing that all of your characters seem to be white, with no mention of any black characters, who originally invented the slang your characters speak.
Gennita Low: My favourite book of yours featured an Asian-American heroine and S. L. Viehl (a white author) has more Asian characters in her books than you do!
Olga Bicos: You were born in the Caribbean and describe yourself as being marked for something special at birth by being born a red-headed Latin American woman. So why have you never written a book featuring a Latin American woman?
I’m hoping someday it’ll happen. ^_~
But even the way I feel about the romance community presently, I still like romance in books and writing it.
If I wanted to succeed in the romance genre, or at least compete on a level playing field, I would have to lie and deny my racial and ethnic background as TP suggested black authors do. In fact many black authors did do this to publish in years past. In romance we just haven’t progressed much.
I could embrace my nonblackness while rejecting my blackness just as enthusiastically and write white or race-neutral characters. If the book was good, I’d be read, reviewed, at least have a chance in the genre. At some level, I think ethnic authors or authors who fake out ethnic, realize this is what has to be done to have a chance in the genre.
Excuse me, I feel the need to vomit.
From reading all these blog entries and resulting comments, here and at the various sites, that have been linked and/or referenced, what I see, is folks don’t want to have a discussion with others, but what they do want to do is to preach to others. All the while, not realizing that the wrong they are preaching about to others, they are doing themselves.
If you discount or negate what others to say, then the same, will be done to you. And, if you hurl insults at others, then don’t be surprised, or upset, when some insults come boomerranging back at you. Turnabout is fairplay.
If you’ve decided, that you’re the only one who is right, or those that agree with you, in a discussion, and won’t listen to others, and what they have to say, especially those who disagree with you, then you really should only talk to yourself, or preach to the choir.
You have to listen, if you want to be heard.
Your point is well-taken. I can only deal with what I do, not others.
From those who disagree, I hear that they feel attacked, that I’m calling them racist. But racism is the issue, how to discuss it without discussing racism? Other words could be used, but it’s still racism.
How do I handle such as an Asian author published in romance with no limitations on her work stating she has the same hurdles as a black romance author. She might have had issues, but she’s never had to deal an Asian section for her books or romance readers refusing to give her a chance because she was Asian. I decided the best response to this would not be to directly say she was wrong, but my own personal experiences that Asians are assimilated to white culture more readily than black Americans. This was said as being insulting to all Asians.
What should I say in instances like this? I know she felt she was being helpful, but what she said felt like a slap in the face to me, a black writer struggling and fighting for a fraction of her opportunities as a majority romance writer (distribution, actually). Is it best to say nothing? Then her statement would stand that Asian romance writers are as marginalized as black romance writers and that’s ludicrous. It’s plain wrong. But should I have let it go?
I guess the Barack Obama, more conciliatory approach, is needed. Somebody that doesn’t make them defensive.
I think I have too much anger because of being treated differently because of my race to be that person.
It is hard not to come from the angle that I’m right and they’re wrong without feeling as if it would be saying racism is right and equality is wrong.
Food for thought.
But the positive thing, Monica, is that you don’t come off as an obnoxious, irrational social activist, ranting at people and refusing to openly communicate or listen to anyone but yourself.
Barack Obama may well become the first AA President of the U.S., but if he decides to use the diplomatic card too much, I doubt there will be much change in the segregation of the AA community in America.
And denying what you believe and know to be true would probably make you even more sick and resentful of Asian authors like Tess Gerriston and Gennita Low who’ve managed to successfully assimilate into the genre.
It’s interesting that this debate has made me think of a large segregated racial group in my own country that to my knowledge, are almost completely silent in many of the fictional genres of popular culture. Many Canadian Aboriginals are still living on government reserves and are overpopulated in Canadian prisons. As I learned in a sociology class, the young men and women on these reserves make up the highest rate of suicide in the country. And there is so much resentment from other Canadians about the government benefits they get.
I think to completely assimilate themselves into our culture would be sad, because they’ve already lost many of their old traditions, but I hope to hear their voices in some form of the romance genre someday too. Many Aboriginal cultures had a mother Creatrix and readily accepted transgender and homosexuality, which would be really interesting to see taken up again, or looked back at historically and celebrated.
Oops, I mean to say they’re *overrepresented in Canadian prisons.
There are so many minority groups suffering, when you look at the big picture, we in the US really don’t have it so bad.
Canadian aboriginals are native Americans too. I’m wondering what tribes?
Monica, I don’t dispute your position at all: black authors should be treated like every other author. Mixed shelving is wrong, I agree. Books should be sorted by genre, period. You said you’ve heard a lot of complaints / excuses from white readers, saying “they can’t relate to those characters,” which is why they don’t read multicultural or interracial titles. I happen to love both. I’m always looking to be swept into a rich, well-written story.
Thing is, I bought a few of your books several months back. This paragraph from In Dreams really made me pause:
That may very well be true, but it’s not very tolerant toward the white people buying your books. Could a white author get away with writing that the character didn’t like being around black folks? It bothered me. I lived in a neighborhood that was predominantly black / Hispanic, and I didn’t mind. Now I’m in Mexico. I don’t feel stressed because I’m not surrounded by white people all the time. I understand I can’t get what it’s like to be black, but to write something like that makes me understand some why white readers would be put off. I read romances for a sweet escape from the real world with all its hate and aggression. To read that in you book came as an unpleasant surprise.
So I’m asking you, why include that? Did it really make the story better, stronger? If you want a wider audience, don’t include stuff that like in your books. Don’t preach when you’re supposed to be entertaining. I’m happy as hell to read about black folks but not when it makes me feel bad to be white. I had no control over that, no more than you had over your heritage. Now maybe you’ll say you’re not responsible for my racial guilt and what-not, but I’d ask back, why would I read an author who doesn’t seem to like white people and makes it plain in print? If we’re working toward tolerance, it has to start somewhere. I think we should write the world as we wish it would be until it becomes that way, and stop focusing on the negative. Call me an idealist, I can live with that.
I didn’t even think about it when I wrote it, it came naturally.
Ginger was the villain and she was a royal bitch. It was a part of her character and my heroine automatically made excuses for her sister knowing she would raise hell in a mental hospital around mostly white people.
You do have a point. It could have been left out. It did not make my heroine sympathetic to be automatically projecting her resentment of whites for their privilege of rarely having to be in that situation (the only white amongst blacks).
It was so natural though. I didn’t think of it until you brought it to my attention nor have any of my readers ever commented on it. Is it a normal thing among blacks to resent whites for their privilege without a second thought? I dunno, but if I wrote that unconsciously, I must do it unconsciously.
Food for thought again. That certainly doesn’t belong in a romance novel.
I agree with Annie that things like that will turn away white readers – as well as readers regardless of race who’d rather read about tolerant heroines, not prejudiced ones. And a statement like that, though fine in a literary or general commercial fiction novel is too heavy a topic for romance. So I agree with both of you on that issue.
However, after more reading than taking part in the deluge of posts on DA, here and at Karen’s blog, I have to disagree with blklitreader in that I *do* think Monica listens. She responds to people directly with her take on things. She rarely agrees with what they have to say but it’s obvious in how she structures her (lengthy) responses that she was *listening*. Taking it in, disagreeing (sometimes politely, sometimes not)…but listening.
Turnaround is fair play indeed but I see too many people personifying the entire race in romance issue as Monica. So if Monica says something they disagree with, then the entire race in romance argument is baseless.
If Monica makes a racist comment then everybody on ‘Monica’s side’ is racist ‘and just don’t know it’.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if anyone reading Annie’s latest comment with Monica’s excerpt will take from that ‘You see! I’m right not to buy these books!’
Of course, Monica has come to represent the black romance author in mainstream blogland purely because she is the *only* black romance author in mainstream blogland who constantly brings up race.
I would appreciate however, if commenters just forgot about YOU (Monica) and focused on the topic. Teddy Pig is a perfect example of a commenter with personal tirades that begin strictly focused on Monica and then seep into the greater debate. Hello?
People called him on his personal attacks but it didn’t seem to affect the validity of his comments on race issues in publishing. However, due to his behaviour, I must sift through most of his comments as very suspect.
As far as whatever one black person does being projected to our entire race, of course some will feel justified by Annie’s comment.
But only a certain sort, and we know the word that defines them. That sort would never read our books the way they read romance by authors of other races the same anyway. They cannot be convinced, their prejudices are too deep-seated.
But Annie was right. Black authors, like any ones, write from their viewpoints and stuff like this might slip in.
I’ve heard black readers not the portrayal of token blacks in majority romance books (we never get love interests, etc.) or more common, our utter absence, even in urban settings. But that is the writer’s world, and many of their worlds are devoid of black people. We all write our worlds.
This is natural, but we also need to edit. In My Dreams, that slipped through. I should have caught it and deleted it.
I do think I listen, but you’re right, I strongly disagree with most apologia, blaming and excuses I hear. Sometimes I get pissed and respond frankly and sometimes I try to be careful.
I was hoping the commenter meant other than me also. The DearAuthor threads on race were closed. At the end of the last, basically it was Teddy Pig, Jan and others dissing black folks and being flip. We’d given up.
I think some of the ones who respond to me don’t really read objectively what I’ve written, but filter it through their emotions and translate it to something else than what the words actually say.
As one of the few blacks who dialog and comment on their boards with them about race, I agree that the racist ire is focused on me. As I wind down and maybe other blacks start commenting in the majority romance blogs and sites, they’ll learn that it’s not just me. I think it will take a while and may start first with black readers. As Karen learned a little bit, my anger is fairly mild. Some of the other black authors are beyond disgusted with them, so they stay silent.
By his consistent comments I wouldn’t be surprised if white male Teddy Pig is a white supremacist. He’d sure fit in at Stormfront and other skin head and KKK sites. Many gays are as racist as anyone else.
Lleeo, you wrote
I’m not sick and resentful of those Asian authors or any others. More power to them. I only disagree if they belittle our situation as black authors or compare themselves with what we have to deal with. And I think few would do so.
However, I am sickened and disgusted by the (euphemism of your choice) I see voiced by some in the romance genre. This has nothing to do with Asian authors, however.
I didn’t intend to offer fuel for anybody’s arguments. I just wanted to enjoy the story and that negatively impacted my ability to do so. I guess my point is: in seeking a wider audience, write stories about black folks, sure, but not solely for black folks. Make sure it doesn’t contain any hidden spikes, and people of any color can feel good snuggling up with it to get lost in the love story or the adventure, whichever is on deck.
I write the world in color. I have people of all races in my books. Loose Id wants a sequel to Guide (where the hero is black) and in My Valentine, the hero is again black, and his heroine is Lebanese-Colombian mixed. I’m not one to exclude from my stories. I would like to live in a world where nothing matters but love.
I agree, Annie. It’s something I will be more alert for in the future.
Hi Annie, I know you didn’t make your comment as representative of any side of the argument.
I was prognosticating
Dalia wrote: However, after more reading than taking part in the deluge of posts on DA, here and at Karen’s blog, I have to disagree with blklitreader in that I *do* think Monica listens. She responds to people directly with her take on things. She rarely agrees with what they have to say but it’s obvious in how she structures her (lengthy) responses that she was *listening*. Taking it in, disagreeing (sometimes politely, sometimes not)…but listening.
If a person says, you offended or insulted me, when you said (or implied) whatever, and if you really hear the person, then you wouldn’t immediately comeback, with a denial, and say I didn’t say that. A good example, in the thread, that started over at Dear Author, with Sara Daniels, was the exchange about Monica referring to Sara as “dark,” when Sara said she actually said that she was darker (than others in her family).
So, in the exchange, Sara wrote:
“I can point out two places where you made dismissive and predjudiced statements against me in the Rooney discussion.”,
Now, whether any offense was intended or not, but Monica’s response was:
“You CLEARLY stated you were darker than your family. I responded in a comment that was in no way an attack, “You say you’re dark. . .” So you saying I insulted you profoundly by leaving off the er?”
Then, later Monica said to Sara:
“Calling me names is an insult. The fact I called you dark when you yourself said you were darker … that’s not an insult, but the fact you can take it as such is a damned shame. Would calling you light when you said you were lighter than your family be an insult? I’m lighter than my father’s family. You can call me light if you want. I wouldn’t give a fuck.”
Do you see how she didn’t even acknowledge that Sara *may* have felt dismissed, slighted, etc? There was no acknowledgement (or an apology for misstating what was said and meant) that MAYBE my words were dismissive, a slight, offensive, etc. A response which would have really advanced the discussion and lent to some understanding, “I didn’t mean it that way”, or “here’s what I meant”, etc. But no we get, ‘what I said no way was an attack’ and ‘what I said to/about you was not an insult.’ Regardless to what Monica thought or meant when she sent the message, the point is that it was received differently. And, she didn’t seem to care that she misunderstood or misrepresented what Sara said. But, boy, let someone do the same to her, whether intentionally or not, then we get this long diatribe.
Then to add, after telling Sara basically, how dare you be offend, because I know I didn’t offend you, by what I said, then she said comes right back, and tells Sara, you offended me (LOL!!):
“I felt and still feel if you did consider yourself black and American, you wouldn’t post such offensive things to me about blacks and about what I have to say–my point was black authors deserve the same treatment nonblack authors get. ”
That’s what I mean by listening, when having a discussion, with another person. And, I agree, Monica does respond, in length sometimes, but often, I don’t think she’s *communicating* with folks when she’s responds. Just because you type a lot of words doesn’t mean that you’re understood. Or that you understood the other person to whom you responded to.
I generally don’t apologize for typos. IF someone is insulted by a typo, that is on them.
Taking offense at any minor nitpick one can is called a smokescreen, to cloud the main issue that might be threatening to them. The woman was offended because of a damn typo–I left “er” off. By that time I was totally disgusted. Sickened in fact. I did listen. Sara and TP’s overall points were that the way we were treated was our fault and we could be treated white just like Ike if we made the effort, straighted up and acted (or presented ourselves as) white. AND that I needed to shut up about it. Gennitha’s point was that Asian authors have similar hurdles as blacks so I was full of shit. NO responses were made to ANY point I wrote EXCEPT to take offense at something unrelated.
I think you’re being dismissive of me at this point. Making an observation that I might be wrong on my site is fine. I DO listen and think about it, but coming here and misrepresenting me isn’t.
I know many blacks have as much distaste for racial discussion as anyone else. It’s hard and draws attention to something they are threatened by. It’s pretty easy to identify somebody by their IP. Coming to my blog to discuss something you disagree with that I wrote and am doing is fine, as long as you do it in a reasonable manner. I’ve never expected everybody to agree with me, nor do I expect to be right all the time. You will find I pay attention and respond to criticism, such as the criticism Annie had.
Attacking me anon is a low blow.
Sara and TP’s overall points were that the way we were treated was our fault and we could be treated white just like Ike if we made the effort, straighted up and acted (or presented ourselves as) white. AND that I needed to shut up about it.
Speaking of misrepresenting.
At no point did I say anything was your fault. At no point did I tell anyone to shut up. Nor did I suggest that anyone act or present white. Ever.
That you read it that way, that you feel that I implied that, is fine and dandy.
But it wasn’t my point.
It’s possible I misunderstood. I wasn’t quoting verbatim, but from what I understood what you and TP were saying.
We’ve gone round on this on other forums. What I’ve gotten from the gist of what you’ve had to say about blacks and romance is that WE don’t have to be niched, that it is our choice because we have presented ourselves as black. and that our possibilities in publishing aren’t limited by our race, but by our choice to be black. Or that it’s not true that publishing limits black authors. And you always make the point that you don’t consider yourself black, but some sort of other.
My response has always been that blacks don’t have those choices you state we do and we are severely limited in publishing because of our race. Because we are black, our options are severely limited in publishing unless we dissemble that we really aren’t black, but some other. And it’s not fair that we’d have to dissemble about our race to receive equitable treatment as compared to authors of other races, no matter what race we are. And as far as you personally, if you don’t present yourself as black, nope you’re not going to get treated as such, but that has nothing to do with the bulk of black authors who can’t or won’t take that option. Inevitably, it seems you get horribly offended at this point. I don’t get it.
Then anything I say is nitpicked for offense and the back and forth begins. Somehow it always gets turned into personal and that I think it’s bad to say you’re not black if I think you are. I don’t think that and deny it. More back and forth.
ADDED: We did come to an understanding over at Kate’s that are disagreements add up to our differing personal experiences about race. I got that you don’t identify with being just black because you accept all of what you are. And I identify with being black because of my upbringing and this society has never, and won’t ever, allow me to be anything else.
That’s how I’ve see it. It is quite frustrating. As if I have no way to get what I really think across. It’s possible you feel the same way, I suppose.
Here’s what I’ve been saying all along:
You contend that ANY black romance author will face this issue in NY publishing. I scratch my head and think about the black authors I have met and know personally and wonder if that is true, given that I have never heard them say anything like this.
I also wonder how in the world anyone in NY knows what color an author is unless the author says so upfront and say so. Maybe this is where you’re building your assumption that I’m telling people to “act white”. To which I say, no, I’m asking whether authors are making it a point to state their race along with their submissions, and if so, why?
I initially mentioned myself because the conversation turned away from publishing and to racism/discrimination in general and I took issue with the idea that no other non-white race suffers discrimination/racism like blacks do.
I don’t like generalities. I don’t like the ‘my suffering is greater than yours’ argument. However, in order to discuss -why- I don’t like them, I can only use my own personal experiences to do so. I can’t and don’t claim to speak for anyone but me. That means I gotta bring myself into it.
You continue to say that I claim I’m not black, despite the fact that I’ve refuted this several times. Whether you agree or care about that choice, saying that I’m making the statement is disingenuous. Correcting you doesn’t seem to stick, so yes, that’s incredibly frustrating.
And to use a phrase that gets used often in this conversation, if you cannot understand why your comment about my picture is offensive, I can’t help you. I can only try to explain:
You can submit to the romance houses and leave race out and it will be assumed you’re not black if you’re light enough as your pic attests you’re are.
To my reading, that comment implies that that due to the shade of my skin, my comments and questions are invalid and to be dismissed.
Based on a picture. A black and white picture that doesn’t, actually, show what color my skin is at all.
Matter of fact, it implies the same about anyone who happens to not be the right shade to meet … whatever level would satisfy you. I won’t take offense for them, they can speak or not speak for themselves.
But I do wonder whether I have to qualify every comment with some example of how I’ve been discriminated against in order to have a valid viewpoint. Do you want a photo file of color pictures of me so you can decide whether my opinion is worth anything?
I’m certain if someone said of your picture, “Well, no wonder you’re in the niche, look at how dark your skin is,” there would be hell to pay.
You contend that ANY black romance author will face this issue in NY publishing. I scratch my head and think about the black authors I have met and know personally and wonder if that is true, given that I have never heard them say anything like this.
Okay, I still contend any black romance author faces this issue. You can read what they say on Karen’s blog. We all face being treated differently because of our race to one extent or another. But FEW will discuss it openly because in example of the hatred I experience for discussing it frankly and publicly in nonblack arenas. I notice even on Karen’s blog they were very careful.
So just because they don’t say anything to you, doesn’t mean that we don’t have these issues. It’s a minefield to discuss even with other blacks.
I also wonder how in the world anyone in NY knows what color an author is unless the author says so upfront and say so. Maybe this is where you’re building your assumption that I’m telling people to “act white”. To which I say, no, I’m asking whether authors are making it a point to state their race along with their submissions, and if so, why?
Our disagreement is that our race is a factor because of the lines we have to write for if we want to write mostly black characters. We can do so for some white lines, such as Brenda Jackson does for Desire, but we’re limited in how many romance with black characters they publish.
It depends on where we submit. Since our identity is black and usually most of our characters and particularly protags are black, we submit to the black lines. Race is very significant. Arabesque had it in their guidelines that their authors must be black. Dafina wants their authors black. That’s the way it is. Millenia Black was discovered to be black and her book pigeonholed as black even though her characters were race-neutral. They push the black authors into the niche, and unless you keep it a secret, it will come out, pretty much the same as what sex you are will.
If we submitted to white lines and wrote white characters, our race might not be an issue, but we’d have to submit to white lines and write white, or mostly white characters, particularly in romance and while maybe not deny it, downplay our race. Get it? We’d have to fake out white instead of writing black characters. That’s what offensive. And for the record, I don’t think Arabesque or the black lines should limit race either or make their white authors fake out being black.
If I was going to submit urban fantasy, I might leave out my race. In romance, I don’t think it would fly unless I wrote white.
It’s hard because is a complicated issue on various levels. But the more you explain, the better I understand. I hope the converse is true.
I still don’t get the offense about your specific race.
To my reading, that comment implies that that due to the shade of my skin, my comments and questions are invalid and to be dismissed.
This is not true. I don’t care what the shade of your skin is. I’m responding to what you’ve written. You don’t seem to relate to black romance authors by what you’ve written, even your skin is ebony black.
Actually, the darkness of my skin is exactly why I’m in the niche. I don’t mind whomever says it because it’s true. If I were as light as some of my cousins, I might have more options if I chose to exercise them.
The shade of our skin used to mean freedom or bondage, it still is highly significant, and particularly in the romance biz.
So I’m trying to get your offense at
You can submit to the romance houses and leave race out and it will be assumed you’re not black if you’re light enough as your pic attests you’re are.
Because that’s exactly what you can do. A lighter skin tone gives you more options today as it did in the past (maybe not as many, but it’s still significant).
I don’t quite understand.
“To my reading, that comment implies that that due to the shade of my skin, my comments and questions are invalid and to be dismissed.”
Sara, I don’t get that at all. I got the impression that she was saying that a lighter complected person has more options, not that your opinions were invalid. Some might assume that you’re a an olive-skinned white person, and others might think you’re Latina. Indeed, I didn’t get the impression that she was discussing your opinions at all.
“I also wonder how in the world anyone in NY knows what color an author is unless the author says so upfront and say so. Maybe this is where you’re building your assumption that I’m telling people to “act white”. To which I say, no, I’m asking whether authors are making it a point to state their race along with their submissions, and if so, why?”
Millenia Black didn’t discuss her race, they asked her. And when she told them, they placed her in the niche.
If you write romances with black people in them, there’s still a limited number of publishers who will publish those. Many times the contracts specify African American fiction. Until the advent of e-books Genesis press was more or less the only publisher that did interracial books. If, like me, that’s what you happened to write, that’s where your books went.
Sounds like yet another ugly can of worms is being opened.
At the other site, on Feb 10 you wrote: “I read your post about being dark.” Then, again on Feb 13, you wrote: “Thanks for noting I didn’t call regard you as white in the first quote either, since you stated you were dark not white or black.”
Ironically, you didn’t initially say to Sara that it was a typo, just you left off the -er, which we all knew changed the meaning and context of what she wrote.
In your response back to her, and never did you say, oh, that was a typo, that I made not once, but TWICE, and even bolded and italicized the typo (I suppose for emphasis). Whether she knew it was a typo, which I doubt based on her responses, or not, her being offended is still being dismissed. It’s telling that one can’t imagine another person might be offended, yet that same person says that others are often offending them.
On your site, you wrote to Sara: “You stated there and other places that you don’t consider yourself black.” She corrected you once again: “I’ll note that I have never claimed not to be black. I claim to not *only* be black. There’s a difference, regardless of whether you see it.” Was your statement, or parts of it, a typo, too?
“I know many blacks have as much distaste for racial discussion as anyone else. It’s hard and draws attention to something they are threatened by. It’s pretty easy to identify somebody by their IP. ”
It’s interesting that NOW, at this point in this discussion, that easily identifying someone by their IP address is thrown haphazardly (or perhaps strategically) into this discussion. What does easily identifying someone by their IP address, have to do with what anyone has typed, thus far? I’m curious, can you easily identify a person’s ethnicity by their IP address? And, how does easily identifying anyone’s IP address relates to anything in this discussion?
I can identify YOU by your IP Address and my comment was directed to you personally. If I can identify YOU, I certainly can identify your race.
At the outset, I noted your original comment was well-taken. Your latter comment felt as if it was an attack and that you resented Dalia for disagreeing with you. Also as if YOU hadn’t read what I’d written, but were concentrating on forwarding your own agenda of personally downgrading me.
I think your original comments are valid when applied to everybody, including me. But me alone? Nah. We have had reasonable correspondence before on other issues, and why the need to come anon publicly with an attack related to me speaking out on the racial issue, I can’t fathom. I never criticized you and others publicly for your continued silence and lack of support, rather defended you for your right to do so.
I was so alarmed at her offense at being considered dark, I decided not to mention the typo on that site–the issue to me was that she was criticizing us black romance authors for accepting niching due to our skin color, but then was upset I referred to her as dark instead of darker? That was what I was questioning when I bolded it and my reply.
Sheesh.
I still don’t understand the reasons for the attacks. No other black author, including yourself, has spoken out on our segregation so consistently and for so long. Now, because I persisted, it is a topic for discussion among whites, where once they were unaware and/or ignored the issue. Many more readers are growing aware of us when they weren’t before. Do you not want to compete in the greater romance arena, and are threatened with the possible loss of the safer, easier black women’s fic and romance niche? Is that the reason why my speaking out is upsetting? This is a question, not a statement.
You know as well as I that any minority speaking openly on such a sensitive (minority) issue is going to have to struggle on various levels, including misperceptions and misunderstanding. I was basically the only one disagreeing with the posters at DearAuthor in the thread you reference and the only one speaking out on the behalf of black authors point of view. I used my real name and took the heat. If you disagree with me and have some other opinion from the black author’s POV, why not have the balls speak out directly in the discussions in the white forums using your own name, rather than merely criticizing me anon for HOW I participated in the thread?
So my second question is, “Where the HELL were you then?”
I may disagree with her at times but I have FAR more respect for Sara Dennis who uses her own name and stands up publicly for her opinions and what she believes
I know your comment was directed to me personally, as I don’t recall reading about you being able to identify anyone else by their IP address, which is why I asked why such a comment was tossed into the discussion. Besides, not sure I understand or accept, that once you identify ME, then you can certainly identify my race. Does it (identifying me by my IP address) matter, and if so, why and if not, why mention it? Just still curious.
Please show me, which statement(s) that you to feel that I was attacking Dalia. I don’t be dismissive, and say, if my comments are seen as an attack then that’s on the other person, and ‘the fact one can take it as such is a damned shame.’ But, my intentions are not/were not to *attack* anyone, so if someone makes an accusation then, I want to know specifically what they are referring to. There seems to be confusion between disagreement and degrading one’s personhood, which to me, aren’t the same. One can disagree without being disagreeable.
I didn’t *resent* Dalia comment(s) at all, though she didn’t disagree with me, no more than I think she resented my comments. But, then again, I can’t speak for her, and could be wrong. Dalia disagreed, and said that she felt that you do listen to others, and then I responded back, and provided some concrete examples, which to me, proved otherwise. If she still disagreed, then that’s fine, too. I just felt if you really did listen, then you wouldn’t have misquoted and misrepresented what Sara said, or at the least, considered that she might have been offended or insulted, which was not the case.
I appreciate the generous consideration, for defending my right to speak, or not speak, of which I don’t think any defense was required or needed, BUT, I must add, you have no idea what I have said or whom or what I have supported. And, that’s fine with me.
One of the best ways to clear up misperceptions and misunderstandings is to simply ask for clarification. And, be open and sincere to hear others out and NOT come to the discussion assuming you’re the only person is right, and your way is the only way. Sure, discussing race can be volatile, and dismissing anyone else who feels or thinks differently, either slightly or greatly, doesn’t further the discussion.
I have no idea of what anyone’s ‘real’ name is on any of these forums. And, don’t care. Besides, just because folks typed their ‘real’ name, doesn’t mean they any more right or wrong. I am more concerned about what folks have to say. So, it’s not important to me. Honestly, this ‘real name’ thingy seems like one of those smokescreens that you mentioned employed to distract. If you chose to not assign any validity to what I write, because you don’t know me and – or my real name — so be it.
But, to answer your first question, I use the “moniker” that I wish to use, as everyone else have that same right and privilege, and I speak when and how *I* choose, just as yourself and others. And, to the second question, I have always been here, and there, again speaking when and how *I* chose to. If you disagree with that, then you disagree — won’t be getting into a pissing contest, so to speak.
Years ago, Blacks attributed to not being published, to racism. So, there were agencies, imprints, and companies created and special provisions (marketing, packaging, etc.) made to get books published by blacks, and get the books to readers, who wanted to read such books, but now that the market is saturated, and sales are flat lining, or worse declining, now once again the yell is racism. The niche, was the remedy before, and welcomed, is now being labeled as the cause or the blame. I can see why some think such has created a ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’ situation.
I am not totally convinced that shuffling books around in the bookstore is the be-all, end-all. It’s akin to rearranging the desk chairs on the Titanic. Or addressing the symptom and not the cause. But, what I do find more interesting is there is nary a cry of sexism, when books by (or about) females are shelved together (i.e., Women’s Studies, which I’ve seen with both fiction and non fiction).
Blacks not being published because of our race is racist.
Blacks being niched just because of our race is racist, damned be sales or whatever.
Women being niched because of their sex rather than the content of their writing (for example if the women mystery writers and SFF writers were put in a special women’s section) would be sexist.
It ain’t brain surgery.
And yes, you have the right to use whatever moniker you choose. But if you choose to be silent and protect yourself on white forums while criticizing someone who speaks out, it’s hypocritical at best. Why did you not make your opinions stated here heard when the topic was discussed widely, using your real name as a multi-published bestselling black author in women’s fiction? Why do you come to another black author’s blog and criticize me when folks were basically getting away with disrespecting your black author ass in mealy-mouthed figurative ways?
It’s always easier to criticize one of your own, right? Slave mentality. Few of us dared to criticize Jane or Jan publicly, though I heard much rumbling privately. Afraid much? They got no whips, no whips at all.
I agree, that if blacks are not being published because of race, then it’s racist, by the same token, if whites are not being published because of race, that is racist, asians not being published because of the race is racist, women not being published because they are women is sexist, etc.
But, where were the cries of racism, when the niche was created? Seems if it’s racist now, then it was racist before. I don’t recall hearing any black authors, who signed, with a publishing company (or especially a black imprint), to write a book featuring nearly all black characters, to be marketed directly or exclusively to black readers, etc., saying this is racist. Just because I don’t know about it, doesn’t mean it’s doesn’t exist., so maybe there were one or two or many raising the warning flag. Or maybe they were falling in line, with their slave mentality, eh? Taking whatever was given, instead of demanding what they deserved. Wanting to stand on principle NOW, when you opted not do before, can be said to be the height of hypocrisy, as well, too. See, that door does swing both ways.
As you know, IF is the operative word. Regarding the rest of your post, been there, done that, just a waste of time and energy. As I told you I am not getting into pissing contest with you — so you can continue to have at it, as it suits your fancy. Because, you know, I could ask you, where are your equally rabid posts and comments, regarding that sexist ‘woman only” area in the bookstores, but I won’t.
What sexist women’s only section in the bookstore? And where is the section where all the fiction written by Asians or Latins is thrown?
Women’s Studies has books pertaining to . . . women’s studies. Fiction isn’t thrown there just because it’s written by a woman.
Or are you referring to romance? That is a content-oriented categorization. Duh.
So . . . what are you talking about? Women don’t have all the advantages men get in publishing, sure, but their fiction isn’t strictly segregated by sex. Unlike many black authors, women authors are categorized according to genre and the content of their fiction.
As far as when the niche was created–surely you remember we were barely published AT ALL before in popular genre fiction? I remember. Most of us were so happy to BE ABLE to have a romance published and read a romance with black folk in it, we didn’t foresee the dangers and the degree that literary segregation would persist.
What you’re saying is similar to criticizing the sharecroppers living under Jim Crow for speaking out against injustice and saying they should have negotiated before they were set free from slavery or shut up.
Pleeeze. What is your point?